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Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Finesse versus Bashing rss

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Trent Hamm
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So, in order to learn the mechanisms of the game, we've started off by playing single hero matches between Finesse and Bashing. So far, Bashing has won every single time, virtually always due to the Trojan Duck running amok.

A few questions for people who know the game far better than I do:

First, is this an example of a matchup where one individual specialization/hero is strictly better than another individual specialization/hero? I don't think such a thing is any sort of a balance issue, as I would assume some specializations cover up for the weaknesses in other specializations.

Second, could you provide some strategic advice as to things the Finesse player should be doing to defeat the Bashing player? Like which starting cards should be converted into workers, which early techs make the most sense, what you should be targeting, etc.?

Thanks in advance!
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Joe Martineau
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I only played finesse versus bashing once, so I can't speak to that specific matchup.

I will say that generally, in the dozen or so games I've played, the game has usually already been decided when the first tech 3 hits the table.
 
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trevor

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Anytime a tech 3 comes out, it's almost always game over. I can't speak to specific strategies because :

1- I'm nowhere near experienced enough
2- gameplay is so dynamic and varied

But stopping the tech 3 building when it's built is always priority imho. Personally I don't find the match up imbalanced
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Chris McLeod
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I don't have the time to Google it properly, but I have read a guide on exactly that matchup, or maybe it was a video.

Also, I don't think every 1-hero matchup is perfectly balanced against each other. I think that's a big part of why there are supposed to be 3 heroes in a Codex.
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Christian K
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But since this particular 1v1 matchup is the starting point I can promise you that it is intented to be balanced and likely is. As mentioned, it is not normal to hit tech 3 every game so the finesse player should be able to end the game sooner or use their own tech 3. I have only played the matchup a handful of times, but I think virtoso synergy and dance partners are quite strong tools. What is causing problems from Bashing? I cannot believe that it is just the trojan duck because it is probably not out before turn 8-10.
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Thomas Brendel
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Sure, but if any 1-hero matchup should be good, it's the one that was sold in a starter set, explicitly meant for that mode, right?

Finesse is the more combo-reliant of the Neutral specs. In this video, the combo pieces don't come together. In this video, they do.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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RageGoblin wrote:
I only played finesse versus bashing once, so I can't speak to that specific matchup.

I will say that generally, in the dozen or so games I've played, the game has usually already been decided when the first tech 3 hits the table.


This is the purpose of tech III. They are game enders.
 
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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Bashing vs Finess is very balanced, but their gameplay is very different. I think new players have an easier time with Bashing because it is simple and you just need to bash to win. Finess is more combo oriented and require a bit more planning, more finess so it is a little bit harder for new player to perform good with it.

But I assure you, their chance to win is equal.
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K
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Haven't played it that much but my first few games of Bashing VS Finesse saw Finesse dominating. I mostly played the Bashing side and it took a few plays to even get to the point where I felt like I had a chance as Bashing. Finesse seems to have a few good plans to keep Bashing guessing -- I think the Finesse air unit (forget what it is called) is pretty good, and in some cases can just win you the game if the Bashing player isn't ready. And if they are ready they are probably vulnerable to different strategies.

Tech 3 is a pretty large investment, I actually found it pretty hard to find time to build tech 3 stuff. So I'm guessing if it keeps happening it's either: they are probably leaving a defensive hole somewhere (break them!), or turtled up and gave you breathing room (maybe get surplus and set up one of Finesse's dream combos) or the game went long (try to end it earlier, maybe Bashing is advantaged in a longer game because Finesse seemed to be stronger early. On the other hand, in a long game Finesse seems to eventually draw into some unstoppable combo, so no idea)

Overall I was left with the feeling that Finesse was actually stronger than Bashing. They just seemed much more flexible and have a better hero.

Seems there are non obvious strategies to explore though too if you go off the beaten path, I even remember reading a strategy post by some guy who was doing a hardcore rush with Finesse, stopping at 5 workers and killing the Bashing player really early.
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Alex Churchill
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Some possible tactics with Finesse to beat Bashing before Tech III happens:

* Two Step is a fantastic spell that can win games. You just need two medium-sized units (2/2 or bigger) and Two Step makes them much bigger than things of a comparable tech level on the other side. I once got two Two Steps out, giving four units +2/+2 each: that game was over pretty quickly.
** Healing normally isn't very good, but it's a little better if you're going early Two Step, because the vulnerability of Two-Step is that once either unit dies, the other loses the bonus. Healing can help to postpone that a bit.
* Nimble Fencers are great because they can come in out of nowhere and screw up the opponent's patrol calculations. When backed up by Bloom and the other neutral spells, even more so. You can manage to win the game without ever building Tech II, just with Tech I units and spells like Two Step and Harmony.
** Harmony can be a strategy by itself, teching in very few units and focusing on the spells and getting River to maxband. It's a bit fragile and can have trouble with fat units like Iron Man, but the payoff of 6+ unstoppable damage each turn is pretty nice.
* If you do get to Tech II, personally I like to focus on the really cheap units. Cloud Sprite is good - amazing with Two-Step as she can destroy a tech building by herself. Leaping Lizard is fantastic value at 3/5 anti-air for just 1 gold. I haven't had much success going for the Maestro combo myself, but Grounded Guide is solid (if expensive).
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Jason Reid
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The Trojan Duck is better than the Blademaster, imo, so in this matchup I think that Finesse is better off trying to win the game at Tech 2. If both sides are pushing to get to Tech 3, I think Bashing will naturally have an advantage.
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Andrew Hauge
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jasonwocky wrote:
The Trojan Duck is better than the Blademaster, imo, so in this matchup I think that Finesse is better off trying to win the game at Tech 2. If both sides are pushing to get to Tech 3, I think Bashing will naturally have an advantage.

Yeah; Blademaster is a Tech 3 that requires particular setup, and you kinda have to already be ahead. He helps you snowball a position into a huge victory.
 
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