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Subject: Bene's Spiritual Advisors? rss

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Charles Reinert
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So in the basic game BG can start with one token in the polar sink, and then all spiritual advisors thereafter go to the polar sink as well. It's a stupid waste of time, but for beginners it may give them an idea on how BG works. So now on to Optional/Advanced rules. Bene can start with one token anywhere on Dune (imagine the possibilities). Thereafter all spiritual advisors go to that same territory (that's how I play it), or to wherever the other person is shipping (how my friends prefer to do it)? Certainly they shouldn't go to the polar sink in anything but the basic game. There is no point to it, and they are stranded useless tokens if they go there. Sure they might be able to get a spice blow if they are lucky but then they are lost. If they can go to wherever they start their original token, BG can build a huge stack of armies in that territory pretty quickly, while shipping one or two down in sietches here and there each turn. I prefer to start and ship into the Pasty Mesa where there are three big spice blows with relatively little competition. But you could start in the mountain territory next to Arrakeen and when your stack was big enough attack there. Lots of choices. Or you could ship wherever your opponents ship, and slowly build armies around the board. This takes awhile but my friends don't seem to mind. I have seen BG win both ways in a six player game, so I guess it is a matter of preference.
Ok so my question to is everyone here is how do you handle the BG spiritual Advisor shipping?
 
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Brad Johnson
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My rulings are:
1) Starting BG token may be placed in any space [rules XV.B.1].
2) Starting BG token may begin coexisting or not [my clarification].
3) Each spiritual advisors may be sent to the destination space of another player's shipment [rules XV.B.3] or to the Polar Sink [BG player shield, also directly referenced in XV.B.3].
4) Spiritual advisors may not accompany Fremen shipments nor Guild cross-planet shipments [my clarification of BG player shield].
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Aaron Bredon
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The Polar Sink isn't as bad a location to have an army as it looks at first. True, it is not located adjacent to many Spice blows, but it is only 2 spaces away from Carthag and Arrakeen (and it is in Ornithopter range of all spaces except Red Chasm and Habbanya Ridge Sietch)
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Charles Reinert
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SO WOULD THEY HAVE TO CHOOSE TO EITHER FOLLOW OPPONENTS WHERE THEY SHIP OR TO POLAR SINK, OR COULD THEY GO TO EITHER ONE WHENEVER SOMEONE SHIPPED? FOR INSTANCE, HARKONEN SHIPS TO CARTHAG SO THEY SEND AN ADVISOR THERE, BUT THEN EMPEROR SHIPS TO HRS, AND THEY DECIDE THEY WOULD RATHER PUT THAT TOKEN IN THE POLAR SINK?
 
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Charles Reinert
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abredon wrote:
The Polar Sink isn't as bad a location to have an army as it looks at first. True, it is not located adjacent to many Spice blows, but it is only 2 spaces away from Carthag and Arrakeen (and it is in Ornithopter range of all spaces except Red Chasm and Habbanya Ridge Sietch)


If you are able to get Arakken or Carthag then shipping to the polar sink isn't bad, but that isn't a given and could take a while. Starting with one token in Pasty Mesa and then shipping all others there gives yo a stack of guys that can get the Red Chasm spice pretty much without a fight, and the South Mesa and Minor Erg spice without much trouble either. The rules are vague on it. Shipping down to where an opponent goes makes sense since they are on the same Guild heighliner presumably, but since the basic rules had everyone go to the one territory they start in (the polar sink), it seemed only natural to me they would just ship to whatever territory they decide to start in. Again, this opens a lot of possibilities.
 
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Raithyn
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WHY ARE WE SCREAMING?

But, in answer to your question, my understanding of the rules lines up with Brad's. (Although since coexistence is declared at the start of the movement round, we've never encountered a scenario where his point 2 was necessary to debate.) Under XV.B.1-3, I would not allow the BG to free ship to the "any territory" of their starting troop. The BG choose each time they send an adviser if it will go to the Polar Sink or the same territory as the faction they are shipping down with.

As a personal preference, I usually find it's best to ship to two or three choice strongholds with other factions' shipments and put all other free advisers in the sink. My forces spread pretty thin otherwise. Context can change that, of course.

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Charles Reinert
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If you have a choice like that, then that's not too bad. I prefer my way for the reasons I have mentioned, but if my group wanted to change it to match Brad's, I would be ok with it. Definitely need to get a group of armies as quickly as possible, or otherwise you are just a bystander in the game. After the first turn with a stack of 4-7 armies in the pasty mesa, I can always take Tuek's if no spice blow nearby has appeared. If a spice blow is near, there are not too many who will risk a battle with BG with that many armies. Seems like generally people avoid battling BG and Harkonnen, unless they have overpowering #s.
 
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Charles Reinert
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How do you get the cool avatar or any avatar for this site?
 
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Raithyn
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TheDuneDude wrote:
How do you get the cool avatar or any avatar for this site?

You use geekgold to purchase the right to display an avatar. You only have to make the purchase once, then you can change your image as often as you like. Geekgold can be hard to build up at first though. There is a forum of generous users willing to help you get enough. I can get you started though.

There are a bunch of other ways to pimp out your identity here (see the avatar link). And, FYI, you'll lose the new user badge a month after you first joined. In that time, you should start exploring the rest of the site if you haven't yet. There's a lot of other good games and discussion here too.

EDIT: Fill out your profile when you find time. You can get to it by clicking your username in the upper left-hand corner.
 
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Charles Reinert
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Thanks I'll see if I can't get it going.
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Dan Nunuyerbiznez
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TheDuneDude wrote:
So in the basic game BG can start with on token in the polar sink, and then all spiritual advisors thereafter go to the polar sink as well. It's a stupid waste of time, but for beginners it may give them an idea on how BG works. So now on to Optional/Advanced rules. Bene can start with one token anywhere on Dune (imagine the possibilities). Thereafter all spiritual advisors go to that same territory (that's how I play it), or to wherever the other person is shipping (how my friends prefer to do it)? Certainly they shouldn't go to the polar sink in anything but the basic game. There is no point to it, and they are stranded useless tokens if they go there. Sure they might be able to get a spice blow if they are lucky but then they are lost. If they can go to wherever the start their original token, BG can build a huge stack of armies in that territory pretty quickly, while shipping one or two down in sietches here and there each turn. I prefer to start and ship into the Pasty Mesa where there are three big spice blows with relatively little competition. But you could start in the mountain territory next to Arrakeen and when your stack was big enough attach there. Lots of choices. Or you cold ship wherever your opponents ship, and slowly build armies around the board. This takes awhile but my friends don't seem to mind. I have seen BG win both ways in a six player game, so I guess it is a matter of preference.
Ok so my question to is everyone here is how do you handle the BG spiritual Advisor shipping?


My question is: How do you get to your rules interpretation from the rules?

But, then, Brad's variants of allowing advisors to be brought from off-planet into the Polar Sink*, changing/default coexistence status, and on ornithopter use are interesting, if not rules supported.

* c.f. "instead of" vs "instead of just"
 
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Charles Reinert
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Evolution. We didn't always play with six players, and I was one of the few players who not only felt comfortable with BG, but liked to play BG. When I read the optional/advanced rules, it said you can start with one token in any territory you wish and then ship down. Since in the basic rules you start with one token in the polar sink and ship all spiritual advisors there, it only made sense to me that you would ship all spiritual advisors to wherever you decided to start instead of the polar sink. However, my friends always thought it made more sense to go to the territory of whoever you were hitching a ride with. Since the rules were not clear on the matter we give whoever plays BG a choice to do one or the other but not both, and this must be decided at the beginning of the game. Brad's interpretation is nice, because if you can get ornithopters, then shipping into the polar sink is a good option to have.
 
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sam newman

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we messed up the rules for the guilds shipping ability. Originally we thought it worked as follows. That the guild could take their planetary movement during any phase. But still only get 1 movement per turn. So they could move away from the storm during storm phase for example.

No idea how we ended up using this rules
 
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Shaddam IV
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gorkel wrote:
we messed up the rules for the guilds shipping ability. Originally we thought it worked as follows. That the guild could take their planetary movement during any phase. But still only get 1 movement per turn. So they could move away from the storm during storm phase for example.

No idea how we ended up using this rules


It is because Edric is constantly hopped up on melange. Third Stage Guild Navigators don't really play by the rules anyway.
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Charles Reinert
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OK, So my group is getting ready to play again this Friday, and I have revisited this issue. I was thinking that if I was lucky enough to draw Bene G, that I might try to ship wherever anyone else ships to, instead of my preferred method of starting one token in the Pasty Mesa and shipping all of my spiritual advisors there. But if I did that, I would be losing my starting strategy for BG, which is to go after a vulnerable Fremen first turn. If my spiritual advisors go to the Pasty Mesa, I have three possible spice blows to get, but I can still ship normally. I like to look for a place where Fremen has five or less tokens. If I have a weapon, then I ship one token into that territory and hope that my leader isn't killed. Fremen can't out dial my leader and I win without losing any spice except for the one I shipped. I am guaranteed 2 spice for his leader. Not a big advantage, but still worth doing, especially if I collected from a nice spice blow in the Red Chasm. Suddenly I have a lot of spice and Fremen is down a leader. This may help my prediction turn out as I eliminated a possible competitor, and has strengthened my position considerably. This doesn't always come to pass as Fremen may be too smart to leave five or less tokens somewhere, although I have seen this exact number in Sietch Tabr plenty of times to start the game. Also the spice blow doesn't always end up in the Red Chasm, Minor Erg, or South Mesa on the first turn (although with two spice blows the odds are decent). The storm could also prevent my collection of spice. Still, it is a nice way to start for BG. They at least have a chance to do something early besides hitching rides around Dune, and waiting to get strong enough to be a factor. As long as my group permits me to do this, it will be my preferred method of playing BG.
 
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O.Shane Balloun
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TheDuneDude wrote:
instead of my preferred method of starting one token in the Pasty Mesa and shipping all of my spiritual advisors there.


I assume you mean naturally shipping your BG troops to the Pasty Mesa by paying for the shipments rather than doing so as spiritual advisors?
 
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Charles Reinert
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No. The way my group plays, BG can either ship spiritual advisors to whatever territory the person they accompany goes to, or they can ship to one territory only that they choose at the beginning of the game. The basic rules have them shipping all advisors to the Polar Sink, but in the advance rules it says they can start in any territory they wish and not the polar sink. Most of my group chooses to ship wherever the person they accompany ships to, but I prefer to ship to one place, and that place is usually the Pasty Mesa.
 
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O.Shane Balloun
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TheDuneDude wrote:
or they can ship to one territory only that they choose at the beginning of the game.


Fascinating. The Pasty Mesa gives you access to three spice blows, the Shield Wall for Family Atomics, and Tuek's Sietch.
 
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Charles Reinert
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Yeah, it's a pretty sweet deal, and it is great they let me get away with it. Although the one draw back is that all my advisors could be trapped in storm or unable to ship down due to storm. So it isn't all wine and roses. Still it is a risk I am willing to take so that BG can have an impact right away, instead of waiting to build up forces over several turns.
 
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Brad Johnson
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This does rely on a house interpretation of the BG advisor rule though -- Charles interprets it as your chosen starting place replaces the Polar Sink as your "default" advisor destination, whereas I've always played it that you can start anywhere you want, but future advisors can only go to the other player's shipping destination or the Polar Sink (not the chosen starting place.)

I'm not saying Charles is wrong, because I think it's possible to justify both interpretations from the imprecise wording of the rules as written. It's just different from how I've ever played with anyone else.
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Charles Reinert
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And the crazy thing is, my group allows me to do this, but whenever one of them play BG they always follow the other player down to their destination. If you get a group that allows you to use my way as an option, it really opens up some possibilities. As Shane notes, there are three spice blows, Shield Wall threat, and Tuek's, but you could easily put your tokens in Arrakeen or Carthag, or the Plastic Basin. It's a pity that the rules are so unclear on certain aspects of the game, but I am thankful for this confusion and thankful for my friends going along with my whims.

Speaking of vague rule interpretations, we go back and forth about the Truthtrance. If a truthtrance can be played at any time, one can use it against Atreides as a modified Karama card by making them answer yes or no regarding a defense or weapon before they use prescience. I don't think this should be allowed as it only affects Atreides negatively in this manner, but again that's what the rules say and don't clarify.
 
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Brad Johnson
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TheDuneDude wrote:
Speaking of vague rule interpretations, we go back and forth about the Truthtrance. If a truthtrance can be played at any time, one can use it against Atreides as a modified Karama card by making them answer yes or no regarding a defense or weapon before they use prescience. I don't think this should be allowed as it only affects Atreides negatively in this manner, but again that's what the rules say and don't clarify.

Yes, we allow this, although it does potentially foil the Prescience. There are lots worse arguments about uses of Truthtrance than this, though.... More than once I've been tempted to toss these out of the game (like they did in Rex.)
 
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Darrell Pavitt
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Spiritual advisers go with the forces they are accompanying. That way they can 'advise' i.e. meddle.
Quote:

it only affects Atreides negatively in this manner,


Why would you play a card against them, and expect it to be helpful?
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Charles Reinert
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I'd like to hear the back story on that one. What are people asking? Is your pin # 4040?
 
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Charles Reinert
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Well of course they do, except they don't, at least not in the basic rules. I just extrapolated the basic rules way of doing things in the advanced game. not saying its fair or even right, but if your group let's you do it, why not?
 
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