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Rusty McFisticuffs
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galad2003 wrote:
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Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?
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galad2003 wrote:

And how do we know that gun-free zones, nearly always marked with signs designating them as such, don’t deter murderous psychopaths? Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

Congratulations! You win the Dumbest God Damn Statement of the Day!

Sorry to all the other contestants.
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J.D. Hall
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Well, it's illegal to carry a firearm into a business or public area marked "No Guns." Last time I checked, it's not against the law to be a Muslim and go into places marked "No Muslims."

And this all speaks again to the absolute tyranny the gun manufacturers have over the whole 2nd Amendment debate. The manufacturers are pushing to sell weapons (which is fine) but they are trying to ramp up the fear in this country to sell those weapons by crap like "gun free zones invite mass killahs!!!" Maybe one or two out of 100, but the rest are deeply disturbed individuals (Orlando anyone?) who pick targets at random or for incredibly sick reasons. What the manufacturers want is an entirely armed America, where everyone carries at least one weapon at all times "just in case."

It is utter and complete drivel that only appeals to the fanatic or the weak-minded. Appalling.

And Noah is not a good substitute for Jon.
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Greg Michealson
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kuhrusty wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
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Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?


And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.
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remorseless1 wrote:
Well, it's illegal to carry a firearm into a business or public area marked "No Guns." Last time I checked, it's not against the law to be a Muslim and go into places marked "No Muslims."

And this all speaks again to the absolute tyranny the gun manufacturers have over the whole 2nd Amendment debate. The manufacturers are pushing to sell weapons (which is fine) but they are trying to ramp up the fear in this country to sell those weapons by crap like "gun free zones invite mass killahs!!!" Maybe one or two out of 100, but the rest are deeply disturbed individuals (Orlando anyone?) who pick targets at random or for incredibly sick reasons. What the manufacturers want is an entirely armed America, where everyone carries at least one weapon at all times "just in case."

It is utter and complete drivel that only appeals to the fanatic or the weak-minded. Appalling.

And Noah is not a good substitute for Jon.


Point of order: It varies by state, but in MO just because a store has a sign that says no guns, doesn't make it illegal to carry in one. If you get caught (which you shouldn't if you're properly concealing your weapon) they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, thats when you can get slapped with a trespassing charge.

As for your last point, it is false. Because you're assuming gun manufacturers want people like the Orlando shooter to have a gun, which they don't. They also don't want criminals using their guns to commit crimes.

Furthermore, with the exception of a segment of the population (vocal minority?) nobody is saying to arm everyone. I'm certainly not. What I am saying though is you live your life and I'll live mine. And if I choose to legally carry a pistol concealed upon my person because I accept the responsibility that goes with it, because I never know what might happen, that you respect my decision. And I will respect yours not to carry. I'm also saying stop trying to pass legislation because something is black and scary looking, or has a shoulder thing that goes up.

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mrspank wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Quote:
Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?


And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.


It's just a coincidence that many of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones?

I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Koldfoot wrote:
mrspank wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?

And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.

It's just a coincidence that many of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones?

There's a stronger correlation between mass shootings and tobacco free zones. Obviously that's not a coincidence either, right?

Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?
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Boaty McBoatface
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No gun free zone signs do not deter, no more then "do not steal" signs stop theft or "no parking" sign stop parking. This is just an argument to do away with all rules and laws, they do not stop anything.

Their point is not prevention, of one type of incident (spree killing), but to reduce (what we are told) is the far more common kind of firearms related death, the one of shooting (deliberate or accidental).
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Koldfoot wrote:
mrspank wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Quote:
Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?


And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.


It's just a coincidence that many of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones?

I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?
Well without knowing the actual statistic it is hard to say.

Many shooting occur in Schools, is that a coincidence], should we thus ban school?

Most mass shooters are between 20 and 50, is it just a coincidence?
 
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kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
mrspank wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?

And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.

It's just a coincidence that many of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones?

There's a stronger correlation between mass shootings and tobacco free zones. Obviously that's not a coincidence either, right?

Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?


Chicago, Detroit, DC, Baltimore...

Do I need to look this up?

Is there a catch in your question? Alaska? Yeah. High murder rate. Few gun laws. Also highest alcoholism rate, drug rates, and youngest population. Also distance to a hospital. Many people who die in Alaska are hours away from medical care and would have lived if they lived in a big city. No excuse, but you could double Alaska's murder rate and not even notice it in national statistics.
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Greg Michealson
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Koldfoot wrote:
mrspank wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
galad2003 wrote:
Quote:
Because mass shootings, rather than happening at gun ranges or in gun stores, keep happening in gun-free zones.

If the point is that gun-free zones aren't about mass shootings, then, uhh, score? I guess?


And here I thought mass shootings occurred more frequently in the U.S. thanks to lax guns laws, easy access to firearms in general and has nothing to do with gun free zones.


It's just a coincidence that many of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones?

I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?


I don't believe the intent of gun free zones is to stop mass shootings. Believe it or not, some people feel safer if they don't see people packing heat at public schools, libraries, etc.

If you're interested in reducing the number of mass shootings, and firearm deaths in general, in the future, then stronger gun control measures are the best place to start.
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Mac Mcleod
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The firepower of the AR15 is such that if a mass shooter showed up at NRA headquarters they would kill at least a dozen people before anyone could respond.

It's more likely someone at NRA headquarters will be killed by their own guns* than that their guns will protect them from being slain by an armed assailant.

(due to jealousy (affair), a toddler with a gun, mental illness, depression, or accident while cleaning or demoing an "unloaded" weapon. Oh I forgot, deciding to use a gun while intoxicated.)
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J.D. Hall
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COMPNOR wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Well, it's illegal to carry a firearm into a business or public area marked "No Guns." Last time I checked, it's not against the law to be a Muslim and go into places marked "No Muslims."

And this all speaks again to the absolute tyranny the gun manufacturers have over the whole 2nd Amendment debate. The manufacturers are pushing to sell weapons (which is fine) but they are trying to ramp up the fear in this country to sell those weapons by crap like "gun free zones invite mass killahs!!!" Maybe one or two out of 100, but the rest are deeply disturbed individuals (Orlando anyone?) who pick targets at random or for incredibly sick reasons. What the manufacturers want is an entirely armed America, where everyone carries at least one weapon at all times "just in case."

It is utter and complete drivel that only appeals to the fanatic or the weak-minded. Appalling.

And Noah is not a good substitute for Jon.


Point of order: It varies by state, but in MO just because a store has a sign that says no guns, doesn't make it illegal to carry in one. If you get caught (which you shouldn't if you're properly concealing your weapon) they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, thats when you can get slapped with a trespassing charge.

As for your last point, it is false. Because you're assuming gun manufacturers want people like the Orlando shooter to have a gun, which they don't. They also don't want criminals using their guns to commit crimes.

Furthermore, with the exception of a segment of the population (vocal minority?) nobody is saying to arm everyone. I'm certainly not. What I am saying though is you live your life and I'll live mine. And if I choose to legally carry a pistol concealed upon my person because I accept the responsibility that goes with it, because I never know what might happen, that you respect my decision. And I will respect yours not to carry. I'm also saying stop trying to pass legislation because something is black and scary looking, or has a shoulder thing that goes up.

Well, in Oklahoma you could be charged with a misdemeanor if you carry into an area tagged as a gun-free zone. Especially if it's the State Capitol (irony there). Never said you'd be doing life without parole at your local maximum security prison. Personally, I have no issues with people who conceal and carry. I think open carry individuals are a little stupid, but again, it's their right, and again, they might have a job where they have to carry a lot of cash or items that thieves want. The morons who slap an AR-15 or SKS across their back and walk into a McDonald's are hopeless. But responsible gun owners (such as myself) I have no quarrel with in the slightest. They know the importance of safety AND the sheer fun of blasting away at targets. They are almost always have jobs, are good people, and solid citizens.

I am surprised that you would think that out of all the heartless, profit-oriented businesses in the world, it's the gun industry which is concerned that their product might be used for crime. I'm sure they give lip service to it, but bottom lines are bottom lines. That's their worry, nothing else. They certainly don't encourage the use of their product in the commission of crimes, I'll give them that.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Koldfoot wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?

Chicago, Detroit, DC, Baltimore...

Do I need to look this up?

Yes, because the stuff I'm seeing in a few minutes' looking says the opposite is true. This is from 2011, but:

Quote:
The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

(Bold mine.) So, yeah, if you disagree with that source, or with their definition of "gun control," or analyzing the data at the state level, etc., where are you seeing support for your claim?
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Still waiting on how many mass shootings (or even a definition of "mass shooting come to that" have occured in gun free zones.
 
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kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?

Chicago, Detroit, DC, Baltimore...

Do I need to look this up?

Yes, because the stuff I'm seeing in a few minutes' looking says the opposite is true. This is from 2011, but:

Quote:
The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

(Bold mine.) So, yeah, if you disagree with that source, or with their definition of "gun control," or analyzing the data at the state level, etc., where are you seeing support for your claim?


Oh . Firearms deaths. They got you. You are in good company. They've got me before with that.

Anti gunners frequently begin a conversation or news story by talking abou murders, then slip in statistics about the death by firearm rate. It's an intentional bait and switch designed to tug at emotion.

In a typical year 2/3 of all firearm deaths are suicide. Another significant fraction were accidents, justified cases of self defense, and police shootings.

The death by firearm rate has no correlation to crime, although it sounds like it does.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
The firepower of the AR15 is such that if a mass shooter showed up at NRA headquarters they would kill at least a dozen people before anyone could respond.

It's more likely someone at NRA headquarters will be killed by their own guns* than that their guns will protect them from being slain by an armed assailant.

(due to jealousy (affair), a toddler with a gun, mental illness, depression, or accident while cleaning or demoing an "unloaded" weapon. Oh I forgot, deciding to use a gun while intoxicated.)


You're so cute when you try and act like you know something about guns.
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remorseless1 wrote:
COMPNOR wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Well, it's illegal to carry a firearm into a business or public area marked "No Guns." Last time I checked, it's not against the law to be a Muslim and go into places marked "No Muslims."

And this all speaks again to the absolute tyranny the gun manufacturers have over the whole 2nd Amendment debate. The manufacturers are pushing to sell weapons (which is fine) but they are trying to ramp up the fear in this country to sell those weapons by crap like "gun free zones invite mass killahs!!!" Maybe one or two out of 100, but the rest are deeply disturbed individuals (Orlando anyone?) who pick targets at random or for incredibly sick reasons. What the manufacturers want is an entirely armed America, where everyone carries at least one weapon at all times "just in case."

It is utter and complete drivel that only appeals to the fanatic or the weak-minded. Appalling.

And Noah is not a good substitute for Jon.


Point of order: It varies by state, but in MO just because a store has a sign that says no guns, doesn't make it illegal to carry in one. If you get caught (which you shouldn't if you're properly concealing your weapon) they can ask you to leave. If you refuse to leave, thats when you can get slapped with a trespassing charge.

As for your last point, it is false. Because you're assuming gun manufacturers want people like the Orlando shooter to have a gun, which they don't. They also don't want criminals using their guns to commit crimes.

Furthermore, with the exception of a segment of the population (vocal minority?) nobody is saying to arm everyone. I'm certainly not. What I am saying though is you live your life and I'll live mine. And if I choose to legally carry a pistol concealed upon my person because I accept the responsibility that goes with it, because I never know what might happen, that you respect my decision. And I will respect yours not to carry. I'm also saying stop trying to pass legislation because something is black and scary looking, or has a shoulder thing that goes up.

Well, in Oklahoma you could be charged with a misdemeanor if you carry into an area tagged as a gun-free zone. Especially if it's the State Capitol (irony there). Never said you'd be doing life without parole at your local maximum security prison. Personally, I have no issues with people who conceal and carry. I think open carry individuals are a little stupid, but again, it's their right, and again, they might have a job where they have to carry a lot of cash or items that thieves want. The morons who slap an AR-15 or SKS across their back and walk into a McDonald's are hopeless. But responsible gun owners (such as myself) I have no quarrel with in the slightest. They know the importance of safety AND the sheer fun of blasting away at targets. They are almost always have jobs, are good people, and solid citizens.

I am surprised that you would think that out of all the heartless, profit-oriented businesses in the world, it's the gun industry which is concerned that their product might be used for crime. I'm sure they give lip service to it, but bottom lines are bottom lines. That's their worry, nothing else. They certainly don't encourage the use of their product in the commission of crimes, I'll give them that.


Bottom lines are bottom lines, but why would a company want their products used by criminals, which could then potentially lead to more legislation restricting said product, affecting their bottom line.

Again, I'm only taking issue with the fact that you said they want to arm all of America. Which I don't think is true, bottom line or no. People can be pro-gun, believe in fewer restrictions, and still support restrictions against those who shouldn't own firearms.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?

Chicago, Detroit, DC, Baltimore...

Do I need to look this up?

Yes, because the stuff I'm seeing in a few minutes' looking says the opposite is true. This is from 2011, but:

Quote:
The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place - assault weapons' bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements.

Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).

(Bold mine.) So, yeah, if you disagree with that source, or with their definition of "gun control," or analyzing the data at the state level, etc., where are you seeing support for your claim?


Oh . Firearms deaths. They got you. You are in good company. They've got me before with that.

Anti gunners frequently begin a conversation or news story by talking abou murders, then slip in statistics about the death by firearm rate. It's an intentional bait and switch designed to tug at emotion.

In a typical year 2/3 of all firearm deaths are suicide. Another significant fraction were accidents, justified cases of self defense, and police shootings.

The death by firearm rate has no correlation to crime, although it sounds like it does.
Well, I'd be all for preventing some suicides. If it has an effect on crime, even better!
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ColdFrog wrote:
Well, I'd be all for preventing some suicides. If it has an effect on crime, even better!


You should do some research.

Pick a country you think has adequate gun laws. Odds are good their suicide rate is higher than ours. Just to save you some crowing, you will first go with Canada. Similar countries. Similar suicide rates. The US has recently edged above Canada, but over time we bounce back and forth for a higher rate. There are other first world countries where the suicide rate is suspiciously low for cultural reasons. Drug overdoses and such are routinely called accidents when suicide is the probable cause.

Unless you get lucky on your second guess, you are going to have to look for a while.
 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Oh . Firearms deaths. They got you.

OK, I'll try again, this time making sure I'm looking at homicides, not just deaths:

Koldfoot wrote:
kuhrusty wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
I suppose it is just a meaningless statistic that most shootings in general happen in the strictest gun control areas?

I would have to see the data. Where are you seeing this?

Chicago, Detroit, DC, Baltimore...

Do I need to look this up?

Yes, because the stuff I'm seeing in a few minutes' looking says the opposite is true. This is from 2013, but:

Quote:
A higher number of firearm laws in a state are associated with a lower rate of firearm fatalities in the state, overall and for suicides and homicides individually. As our study could not determine cause-and-effect relationships, further studies are necessary to define the nature of this association.

(Bold mine.) So, yeah, if you disagree with that source, or with their definition of gun control, or analyzing the data at the state level, etc., where are you seeing support for your claim?
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Koldfoot wrote:
ColdFrog wrote:
Well, I'd be all for preventing some suicides. If it has an effect on crime, even better!


You should do some research.

Pick a country you think has adequate gun laws. Odds are good their suicide rate is higher than ours. Just to save you some crowing, you will first go with Canada. Similar countries. Similar suicide rates. The US has recently edged above Canada, but over time we bounce back and forth for a higher rate. There are other first world countries where the suicide rate is suspiciously low for cultural reasons. Drug overdoses and such are routinely called accidents when suicide is the probable cause.

Unless you get lucky on your second guess, you are going to have to look for a while.


hmmmm

50 nations have higher suicide rates than the u.s.
120 nations have lower suicide rates than the u.s.

You have a point on japan (higher) but lose a point on Australia (lower).

However, of the 50 nations with higher suicide rates only 4 are what I'd call 1st world countries (and russia is kinda dodgy and suffering economically). So lower standard of living and worse medical care* could be more of a factor than guns.

Many of the nations with lower overall suicide rates have very strict gun laws - pretty much only shotguns and birdshot guns for hunting.
(Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Denmark, Luxembourg (kinda small), Portugal?, Netherlands) Are much lower and have stricter gun laws. Not sure about portugal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

You should probably do some basic fact checking before you post some of these things. Nothing major.. but a quick google perhaps?


*Russia's kinda dodgy on medical care too. Many things that are brutally expensive in the states are $75 bucks in russia per my russian clients who went back to russia for medical care regularly (and they had u.s. insurance- the deductible was more expensive than a trip home for the sane procedure). They probably still do- but my major corporate gig moved away.
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Didn't mass shootings happen on a couple of US Military bases? In this decade?

Or are we still busy confirmational biasing something, and nevermind all that sort of thing?

https://www.rt.com/usa/338981-american-military-base-shootin...
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