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Subject: Does Myth favor a group playing it regularly? rss

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David Griffin
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In a recent thread I talked about regular playing groups being evidence of support for a game but after doing that it occured to me to wonder if this is only a factor for games with Role playing pretentions (or with established campaigns to play such as Legacy Risk or Legacy Pandemic, or Seafall).

Does the fact that there is no actual campaign mode in Myth mean that Myth shouldn't be judged by that criteria? That perhaps taking it out and playing it once in a while is what it was meant for rather than playing it weekly or regularly? Just curious what people think.
 
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John
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Personally I believe it benefits from a constant group, especially since it has progression mechanics.
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David Griffin
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whiskemuscles wrote:
Personally I believe it benefits from a constant group, especially since it has progression mechanics.


But not REALLY a campaign mechanic right? Is a group really going to stay interested in playing the same group starting nearly over time and again building up titles or card swaps without even the Journeyman stuff out yet (at least in general supply)?

It's a fun game and all, but isn't it more like a fun board game (like Mage Knight) where you might not want to play it continuously because your Mage knight is always pretty much the same?

I admit I don't know myself.
 
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Shiro
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You build up your character and get better over multiple games so I find that a constant group helps.
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Judy Krauss
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I play solo and start new parties or continue previous ones or play Slaughterfield mode as I wish, whenever I wish. Works great!
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Ben Locke
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I've found it harder to get a consistent group together for Star Wars: Imperial Assault than Myth. Within 30 minutes of explaining Myth, you can be playing. If the group has ever played a dungeon crawler or minis laden game it's very easy to explain the roles and card play, and get going. Whereas, after the initial scenario of SW:IA about half want to retool their character or drop out, and another half drop after the next campaign. Imperial Assault has a similar issue with carrying over character progression, yet doesn't seem to get the same flack that Myth does.

Likewise, dungeon crawls like Claustrophobia also don't have progression carryover, yet are highly replayable.

I don't know that a regular group, however, would benefit from repeated plays of Myth, because, at the end of the day, there's no overarching point to Myth. There isn't a campaign to connect the dots and give meaning to progression. This is both the plus and minus of Myth. It's a plus that you can just pick up and go, and don't have to Adam the narrative. It's a minus because of all the progression gaps you've mentioned elsewhere.

My hope is, once we've got the next deliverables and updates, we can create an overall narrative to this world, and give our heroes a reason to progress and possibly an "end game" condition.
 
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David Griffin
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There is no perfect analog for Myth, but if Mage Knight (dungeon crawl like but really more of a tactical/strategic puzzle game) added the ability to keep an advanced action card and/or an artifact once in a while wouldn't we have just duplicated the "campaign" potential of Myth? Still don't have the treasure bag, but seems similar otherwise.

I played Full thrust for a long time with a group. No Star Trek IP to draw me in there and no "campaign" progression mechanic to keep me coming back, just a fun game to play (there was already a group and I was interested in the genre).

Not sure I'd want to play THAT much Mage Knight, but if there was already a group for Myth, I might attend, but would I keep at it for a calendar year? Again not sure. Not sure WHAT it is in a game that keeps me coming back to it again and again over the LONG term.
 
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Ben Locke
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carbon_dragon wrote:

Not sure I'd want to play THAT much Mage Knight, but if there was already a group for Myth, I might attend, but would I keep at it for a calendar year? Again not sure. Not sure WHAT it is in a game that keeps me coming back to it again and again over the LONG term.


I guess that's the real question. Even if there were character progression in Myth, would that be enough for you? For others, Myth is what it is, and it's enough to keep us coming back for more. Some (I'd dare say most) house rule things that don't abide by their play style, but for the most part, the progression (or lack thereof) isn't an issue to keep them away.

I think regular play groups are ideal when one of two conditions are present: 1.) you know what you're going towards - meaning there's some overarching story you are telling, with a beginning, middle and eventual end, or 2.) you are just telling stories - like a D&D campaign - where each story might have a beginning, middle and end, but the bigger STORY is never really over (unless your DM wipes your group and you have to start all over)

Myth doesn't have 1 (yet), and doesn't handle progression the same as a D&D campaign to succeed at 2. Therefore, for me at least, it's better approached from a casual play rhythm.
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Tobias Loeffler
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carbon_dragon wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
Personally I believe it benefits from a constant group, especially since it has progression mechanics.


But not REALLY a campaign mechanic right? Is a group really going to stay interested in playing the same group starting nearly over time and again building up titles or card swaps without even the Journeyman stuff out yet (at least in general supply)?

It's a fun game and all, but isn't it more like a fun board game (like Mage Knight) where you might not want to play it continuously because your Mage knight is always pretty much the same?

I admit I don't know myself.


TBH, I don't get it, why you don't just sit down and play this game and actually find out, if your group gets bored by it or not, if they mind starting over, if they have a problem with fireplace pokers and potlids or if they acutally wanted to play D&D and you just tricked them and told them it's a beta of the 6th Edition... whistle
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David Griffin
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nimmzwei wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
whiskemuscles wrote:
Personally I believe it benefits from a constant group, especially since it has progression mechanics.


But not REALLY a campaign mechanic right? Is a group really going to stay interested in playing the same group starting nearly over time and again building up titles or card swaps without even the Journeyman stuff out yet (at least in general supply)?

It's a fun game and all, but isn't it more like a fun board game (like Mage Knight) where you might not want to play it continuously because your Mage knight is always pretty much the same?

I admit I don't know myself.


TBH, I don't get it, why you don't just sit down and play this game and actually find out, if your group gets bored by it or not, if they mind starting over, if they have a problem with fireplace pokers and potlids or if they acutally wanted to play D&D and you just tricked them and told them it's a beta of the 6th Edition... whistle


I have played it several times. I don't have much of a group per-se these days. That's why having a group nearby already playing a particular game is such an advantage.

I bought this game because I thought it sounded interesting (and it definitely is, enough to hold my interest). My usual pattern is to study the rules of a game, play through it solitaire a time or two and teach it to my usual game partner. This time it was a lot more work. Partly because the KS lot was unpainted that I bought (on eBay) and partly because Myth has such an incredible learning curve when you are teaching yourself.

I spent about 2-3 weeks painting the minis (and I have nearly everything) and co-incident with that, about 2 weeks reading through the rules (V1 and V2) watching Megacon videos, watching any other videos I could find on YouTube, and trying to play through it solitaire (which this game facilitates pretty well except maybe for necessary table space). It was an enormous effort to be ready to teach it competently. We did our game, it went pretty well and I'll probably get it on the table again with him and probably also solitaire too.

My most recent task was to try to start with an upgraded party (with some advanced cards and some titles) and play through Rise of the Revenant. I've played act 1 and it was interesting. I got a better idea of what the titles and advanced cards did for you but I'm far from an expert. Act 2 looks to be much harder.

Typically we don't end up playing the same game for LONG periods of time, but there have been exceptions. Games that generate groups of avid players (most recently Star Trek Attack Wing) have a ready made group of players which tends to keep the game on the table. In the past Full Thrust was the same, I attended that same group for nearly a year. I did that with Star Fleet battles in the past (when it was a zip lock game) and of course role playing games.

I was just trying to figure out if this game tends to generate groups that play it regularly, or if it's more like Mage Knight that you get off the shelf now and then when you're in the mood. I'm not sure exactly what it takes in a game to get me to focus on it over a long period. I think part of it is availability (people nearby to play) and part of it is depth of strategy and tactics (which this game has).
 
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Rob Davis
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I think that a big part of your problem may be that Myth simply isn't a great single player game. Yes it can actually be played solo, and played easily, but, at least to me, the best part of Myth is the stuff that happens when you're playing with a group. It creates situations that you just don't get when playing by yourself.

By yourself you can always do whatever is best for the group to optimize your game plan. That gets boring, especially when you get to the point where you can easily game the AI system. That doesn't usually happen with a group. You end up with guys occasionally arguing over who gets the new piece of gear, who should get a healing potion, who the Acolyte should heal next, how many monsters to put on the board, etc, etc, etc.

I would almost compare it to playing an RPG by yourself. Not nearly as much fun solo, as with a friend or four.
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It is my opinion that Myth is geared towards regular play with a group, in the mould of a tabletop RPG; though it lacks many RPG aspects, the game's structure and framework readily supports and encourages emergent storytelling.

The persistent treasure bag strongly rewards regular play, as does the deck progression mechanic.

Running 2 or 3 heroes solo as a new player is pretty hard. Each hero has its own learning curve, and executing higher level strategies depends somewhat on player knowledge of what remains in his hero's deck, so the cost:benefit of mechanics like Rage can be weighed properly.

Solo, it takes me at least 45 minutes to do a 6x6 tile with 3 heroes, and a full Story can be a weekend's worth of solo play for me.

With my group, the campfire tile takes about 20 minutes, and it's not uncommon for us to knock out one of the early Story quests in a 3-hour game night. The asynchronous nature of the Hero Cycle means that players who suffer from Analysis Paralysis don't drag on the game nearly as much as in a more turn-based game like Descent; and since the A.I. is straightforward, once everyone at the table knows how the bad guys behave, spawning and movement during the Darkness Cycle gets sped up as well.

Story time:

When I first started with Myth, one of my major complaints about the game was the time investment required. During my first month with the game, it was hard to get a chapter quest done in less than 3 hours. I was teaching myself the rules, and the 1.0 rules were certainly not very helpful in teaching the game. On top of that, I was playing 2-3 heroes solo, trying to get a handle on the heroes that my regular gaming group would play, in preparation for giving my group the best experience possible. This steepened even further the already steep learning curve. I freely admit that if I wasn't several hundred dollars into the Kickstarter and still waiting on an obscene amount of plastic, I would have binned it; the sunk cost fallacy kept me playing, and I'm now very happy that I stuck with it.

After about 30 hours of solo play in that first month, the game broke out of the mental box I'd put it into. I suppose I'd reached a level of mastery or at least comfort where I didn't have to think about the stupid nonsense of 1.0 rules contradictions and ambiguities so much; but whatever the reason, I got out of my own way and just played the game. I stopped trying to play Myth as something it wasn't, and started to enjoy it on its own unique merits.

Shortly after my breakthrough, I introduced it to my regular RPG gaming group, and once everyone had the basics of their hero and the cycles down, the game played much faster than I could play solo. At first, we would primarily play a tile or two of Myth as a pickup game while waiting for the full group to gather, but after one of my regular players moved away and another passed on, we found that although we couldn't really keep our roleplaying game going, we could still play Myth. Although the setups are familiar to us now (there's not a single Story we haven't done at least 3 times) each game plays quite differently as we master different Heroes and always start with brown gear. The social and emergent storytelling aspects come to the fore while we have the familiar mechanics happening on the table.

If your friendly local gaming store has an open game night (mine has one every other Saturday), take your beautiful big box of Myth down there, take over a table, and set up a tile. Play it solo, and if someone walks by and looks interested, ask them if they want to play, and if they do, hand them a hero deck and teach them the basics. My experience is that it won't be long before you've got 3 people sitting with you and having fun.

Cheers!
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Josh Derksen
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Excellent, well-written response, zee. GG for storytime.

zogre wrote:
After about 30 hours of solo play in that first month, the game broke out of the mental box I'd put it into. I suppose I'd reached a level of mastery or at least comfort where I didn't have to think about the stupid nonsense of 1.0 rules contradictions and ambiguities so much; but whatever the reason, I got out of my own way and just played the game. I stopped trying to play Myth as something it wasn't, and started to enjoy it on its own unique merits.


That bolded bit resonates strongly with me - something similar happened to me when I started playing the game regularly with others. It's weird that gamers bring so much baggage to genres of games that when something fresh like Myth comes along we have so much trouble adapting to it.
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Martin Wakefield
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I play myth regularly every other Friday with a 3 person group. The learning curve was pretty steep to start and my original group started with 5. 2 quit due to lack of patience and the ambiguity of the 1.0 rules. We had a total party wipe on the 3rd act of no rest for the weary and that sealed the fate of the game with 2 of my friends. So now we play 3 player pretty consistently and have a great time. We're trying no rest for the weary again having played through a lot of the adventure mode quests and the 2 dlc modules. Having gotten the hang of the game now player turns are fast and we usually get through an act in about 2-2 1/2 hours. It's a great game for a regular group and I can't wait for journeyman.
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Marcus Taylor
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carbon_dragon wrote:
I was just trying to figure out if this game tends to generate groups that play it regularly, or if it's more like Mage Knight that you get off the shelf now and then when you're in the mood.


Myth is really grindy, quite static and can get very repetitive. The card play is deep and interesting (which actually makes it worse for solo play - good solo games tend to have simpler hero rules) but the actual play tends to be:
kill lair, kill monsters, rinse, repeat.


Again, I wonder if you might want to take a look at Shadows of Brimstone. Sure, the combat can get repetitive if you only use the enemies from the box sets (as with Myth). But in addition to the fights, it also has encounters which reference your character stats, and can make for a more RPG experience. There are full rules for towns and travelling, which makes it less monotonous than endless minis battles.

It also has very good levelling and looting rules, which Myth lacks. Even if you lose a scenario, your character can still improve and grow as long as you don't die. It's also far easier to play solo because each hero can only do one thing per round - Myth's interactive card play works best with several players.

The minis are abysmal though, something where Myth wins hands-down.

If you can play Myth frequently without getting bored, then great, good for you. But it just wasn't a varied enough experience for me, and it doesn't play well solo; it's kinda like playing 'Munchkin' against yourself.
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Dan Renwick
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12from1 wrote:
Imperial Assault has a similar issue with carrying over character progression, yet doesn't seem to get the same flack that Myth does.


They say that when you're selling a house and you're getting it ready to be shown to prospective buyers, you have to make sure that it's absolutely free of problems or issues, whether it be cracked wall, peeling paint or whatever. The reason being that once people see one problem with the house, they'll start searching around for other problems.

I suspect that Myth has suffered from a similar fate. MCG made a botch of the rules and 1.0 version cards, and they got what was probably well deserved flack for it. But now a lot of people will go through the game with a fine-tooth comb looking for faults and issues that would probably be ignored in other games like Descent or Claustrophobia
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Ben Locke
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Darby_ wrote:
12from1 wrote:
Imperial Assault has a similar issue with carrying over character progression, yet doesn't seem to get the same flack that Myth does.


They say that when you're selling a house and you're getting it ready to be shown to prospective buyers, you have to make sure that it's absolutely free of problems or issues, whether it be cracked wall, peeling paint or whatever. The reason being that once people see one problem with the house, they'll start searching around for other problems.

I suspect that Myth has suffered from a similar fate. MCG made a botch of the rules and 1.0 version cards, and they got what was probably well deserved flack for it. But now a lot of people will go through the game with a fine-tooth comb looking for faults and issues that would probably be ignored in other games like Descent or Claustrophobia


/\/\this, for sure/\/\

I don't intend on being a Myth apologist. I just know that there are equally lengthy errata and FAQ's for rules explanations for other, similar games, that seem to get a pass.

The main point was, while SW:IA shouldn't suffer from lack of a group wanting to play, in my experience, it did. It's a well known franchise/universe, but the DM really makes or breaks the replay ability (as is true in any RPG). Where Myth (and Shadows of Brimstone, Zombicide, etc) has an opportunity to engage players into wanting more is that there isn't a DM that ruins your adventure, it's your own team of players who either get overconfident or in over their heads.

Where I've seen a positive for games like Descent and SW:IA over Myth is when a player or group want some overall goal to the game. Defeat the dragon. Capture the flag. Save the princess. That sort of thing. Myth doesn't have that, so it needs to be sound enough that you can pick it up and play it out of the box (like Zombicide). Unfortunately, Myth isn't easy to pick up and play out of the box. Therein lies the conundrum.

Myth needs repetitive play(er)s to have an efficient run through, but if you "restart" every time, you can't accomplish lofty, legendary goals (like slaying the dragon). If you try to save your progression, it needs repeat players, but again, to what end? When are you done playing Myth? I know when a scenario or session is through in Imperial Assault or Zombicide or Claustrophobia. Unless you prepopulate your adventures (which then aren't you effectively DMing the game?) and plan the adventure out, there's little incentive to have a dedicated group.

The fix might be modules. So far, they seem to give me what I'm looking for to help entice repeat playthroughs with a dedicated group. This way, gaining a few titles and good equipment through progression becomes the means to an end to completing a given module. If after completing a module the group wants to keep going, enter the next module. And so on, until the next thing takes its place.
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Josh Derksen
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12from1 wrote:

Where I've seen a positive for games like Descent and SW:IA over Myth is when a player or group want some overall goal to the game. Defeat the dragon. Capture the flag. Save the princess. That sort of thing. Myth doesn't have that, so it needs to be sound enough that you can pick it up and play it out of the box (like Zombicide). Unfortunately, Myth isn't easy to pick up and play out of the box. Therein lies the conundrum.

Myth needs repetitive play(er)s to have an efficient run through, but if you "restart" every time, you can't accomplish lofty, legendary goals (like slaying the dragon). If you try to save your progression, it needs repeat players, but again, to what end? When are you done playing Myth? I know when a scenario or session is through in Imperial Assault or Zombicide or Claustrophobia. Unless you prepopulate your adventures (which then aren't you effectively DMing the game?) and plan the adventure out, there's little incentive to have a dedicated group.

The fix might be modules. So far, they seem to give me what I'm looking for to help entice repeat playthroughs with a dedicated group. This way, gaining a few titles and good equipment through progression becomes the means to an end to completing a given module. If after completing a module the group wants to keep going, enter the next module. And so on, until the next thing takes its place.


Which is part of the reason why Myth is so weird. This aspect of it is way more like playing Dungeons and Dragons on a regular basis just to see where your adventures lead you from session to session, instead of a pre-defined narrative with an ultimate objective.

It wouldn't surprise me if the modules eventually end up pointing toward an ultimate objective that becomes clear for high level characters, because Megacon hinted in one of the Journeyman KS updates that "The Darkness" is an actual being.
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Ben Locke
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I agree, Josh, on both points. Also, I've always thought of Myth as The Legend of Zelda or Dragon Warrior in board game form. Zelda, because you encounter similar enemies throughout your adventures, and Dragon Warrior from the way the party works together, and levels up progressively. The only thing missing is a real "save game" mechanic, or a way of jumping players into a scenario without starting fresh.

I think carbon dragon and I had a similar thread where we theorized that there should be an adventure generator that took into consideration the experience of the players, # / name of titles, # / who is in the party, treasure bag status / upgrades, equipment each character has, and desired difficulty level (among other things). I think if there were a way of either choosing a module or Act/Story to play with a recommended load out/party make-up, or vice versa, then Myth would excell regardless of dedicated group play.

Example:
I walk into my FLGS on open gaming night and crack open Myth. Three people express interest in playing, and I ascertain that they've all played some form of dice driven minis games. I ask if they have three hours to play a quest/module, they say yes. I ask if they want a cakewalk/intro or somewhat difficult scenario (I suggest avoiding any "hard" quest chains), they agree on intro with some difficulty. I then go to [insert chart that doesn't exist yet] and it suggests for a four player, intro quest with moderate difficulty a series of quests that lead to some ultimate battle/resolution with some kind of load out for each character (with alternative suggestions in case someone would rather play the Trickster instead of, say, the Archer). Perhaps the load out suggestions for this scenario that you MUST include the Acolyte with one green item and either the Soldier, Brigand, or Apprentice with a green item and title.

The cool thing is, if you have a dedicated group, you can play and build to the prerequisites needed over a series of sessions. If you don't have a dedicated group, you can still attempt to tell/play a compelling story, without fear of failure because you didn't spend prior sessions building to the recommended load out.

Because so much of this is somewhat subjective, I feel it is ripe for an app to handle these things. Similar to a party/squad generator for X-Wing/Attack Wing. Plug in the things you know, or want to set (characters you want to play as, difficulty desired, game length, etc.) and the app spits out scenarios, quests, hero load outs, and any other suggestions. All of which can be adjusted on the fly by the players depending on how they're doing.
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armoredgear7 wrote:
...
Which is part of the reason why Myth is so weird. This aspect of it is way more like playing Dungeons and Dragons on a regular basis just to see where your adventures lead you from session to session, instead of a pre-defined narrative with an ultimate objective.
...


This is exactly what I like about it most. Although the card use and tactical battles are also to my liking, I love being able to essentially create my own adventures and then play them out without needing a non-party-member-player "dungeon master".

I'm sure I will like the modules, too, and I often incorporate quest cards into my adventures (by just choosing the quests, tiles, and monsters that fit the story I want to tell), sometimes by just following the quest chains to their conclusion (if my heroes survive that long!).

I also like the ability to just start an adventure without worrying too much about leveling up. The game's theme is about a bunch of adventurers sitting around a campfire telling tale tales about their past adventures, which fits the gameplay strange's "progression" well, IMHO.


Edit: fixed a typo that reversed the meaning of what I wrote. blush
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David Griffin
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There are times in role playing games (say D&D) where the whole party is operating like a well-oiled machine, working together to take down a bad guy who shouldn't be able to be taken down, but it's happening because everyone is contributing to the plan, everything is clicking. That is a beautiful experience and rare even in RPGs.

This isn't the first board game which extracts the "encounter" from a RPG and makes a separate game out of it. But in many ways, though the progression system is not intended to mimic RPGs, Myth facilitates that magic moment a lot better than other games like Temple of Elemental Evil. I think partly it's the depth of tactics, the concentration on skill over die rolling luck, and the willingness to let the players take a breath at the end of a tile. Just my opinion of course.
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