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Subject: Quick Rules Questions -- tranquilizer mama and reshuffling rss

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Ben Stanley
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Just to make sure I got these two rules right:

1. If th mama raptor has been shot a few times, the action point penalty only has to be paid once, right, and only if you want to move the mama? In other words, you do not have to spend an extra action point prior to each move or prior to eating a scientist. You only have to pay the cost one time that turn and only if you plan to move or use the mama at all right?

2. If a player spends down to two cards left in the hand and nothing in the draw deck, the player gets a "free" reshuffle without having played the 1 card, right?
 
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Bruno Garcia
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Right on both. You have to do it again next turn and you lose when you get 5.
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Niko
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#1 is correct, but for #2 I think you have to shuffle the deck as soon as it runs out, rather than when you can't draw from it.
I.e. at the end of the turn in which you play your 6th card you draw back up to 3 cards in hand, depleting the deck. At that point you reshuffle your deck, you don't wait until you have played another card.
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Lars H
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Blue Steel wrote:
Just to make sure I got these two rules right:

1. If th mama raptor has been shot a few times, the action point penalty only has to be paid once, right, and only if you want to move the mama? In other words, you do not have to spend an extra action point prior to each move or prior to eating a scientist. You only have to pay the cost one time that turn and only if you plan to move or use the mama at all right?

2. If a player spends down to two cards left in the hand and nothing in the draw deck, the player gets a "free" reshuffle without having played the 1 card, right?

1. Right. You only have to spend extra action points prior to the first move in your turn, meaning:
a) You don´t have to spend extra action points prior to any other action (like eating a scientist, waking up a baby raptor or putting out a fire). So if you only take "no move actions" in your turn, you don´t have to spend extra action points at all (therefore I striked through your last words in the quote).
b) You don´t have to spend extra action points if you take a second move action in the same turn.

2. Right, but only with the already played seven cards. After you have played your seventh card, you have two cards left in your hand at the end of your turn. At this moment you cannot draw another card from your draw pile, so now you shuffle the already played seven cards to form them to a new draw pile. You draw a third card from this new pile.
(If you take the shuffle action from the "1" card you shuffle all nine cards and form a new draw pile from which you draw three new cards)
 
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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We all agree on the first question. As for the second, I've been playing it as Niko suggests but the rule as written is problematic:

rules wrote:
End of the Round
If a player empties his draw pile, he keeps the cards he has in his hand, shuffles the discard pile to create a new draw pile and then draws up to complete his hand with three cards.

This is circular logic in that it starts with "if a player empties his draw pile" and concludes with "then draws up to complete his hand". An 'if / then' construct implies that the first element is the cause and the second is a conditional effect, but practically speaking the 'if' in this case (emptying) is a consequence of the 'then' (drawing).

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? If we shuffle when we empty the draw pile, we'll be shuffling 6 cards, and if we defer until we need a card when the deck is empty we'll be shuffling 7.

It absolutely does matter which we choose. There are situations where you'd rather shuffle that 7th card and others where you'd rather not, but that gets into strategy and isn't relevant in a pure rules discussion. Based on the rules as written an argument can be made either way.

As I said, I've been playing it as a standard "if / then", shuffling 6 cards at the moment the draw deck empties. Based on 40+ plays I can vouch for the fact that doing so poses interesting problems for the players and results in a finely balanced game.
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Niko
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Sphere wrote:
We all agree on the first question. As for the second, I've been playing it as Niko suggests but the rule as written is problematic:

rules wrote:
End of the Round
If a player empties his draw pile, he keeps the cards he has in his hand, shuffles the discard pile to create a new draw pile and then draws up to complete his hand with three cards.

This is circular logic in that it starts with "if a player empties his draw pile" and concludes with "then draws up to complete his hand". An 'if / then' construct implies that the first element is the cause and the second is a conditional effect, but practically speaking the 'if' in this case (emptying) is a consequence of the 'then' (drawing).

So which came first, the chicken or the egg? If we shuffle when we empty the draw pile, we'll be shuffling 6 cards, and if we defer until we need a card when the deck is empty we'll be shuffling 7.

It absolutely does matter which we choose. There are situations where you'd rather shuffle that 7th card and others where you'd rather not, but that gets into strategy and isn't relevant in a pure rules discussion. Based on the rules as written an argument can be made either way.

As I said, I've been playing it as a standard "if / then", shuffling 6 cards at the moment the draw deck empties. Based on 40+ plays I can vouch for the fact that doing so poses interesting problems for the players and results in a finely balanced game.
Good point about the "then draws up to complete his hand with three cards"
Hopefully we will get an official clarification on this!

Laars wrote:
(If you take the shuffle action from the "1" card you shuffle all nine cards and form a new draw pile from which you draw three new cards)
This is not correct.
The ability of the 1 cards allows you to shuffle the draw and discard piles together, not the cards you currently have in hand! I.e. 7 cards are shuffled and one is drawn to fill your hand back up to 3.
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Spider Jerusalem
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I think we're overcomplicating this section of the rules and I don't agree that the logic is circular. The paragraph about reshuffling the discard pile is in a section of the rules which, to summarise, begins with "At the end of the round, draw up to 3 cards."

The paragraph we're discussing follows that first paragraph, therefore, it's essentially saying "If you can't draw up to 3 cards because your draw pile is empty, reshuffle the discard pile and then draw up to 3 cards".

In other words, you'll be reshuffling 7 cards and may end up drawing the card you've just played.

If, at the end of a round, you drew the last card on the draw pile and have 3 cards in hand, you wouldn't 'refshuffle and draw up to 3' again, like the last paragraph says, because you've already drawn a card and would end up with 4. The trigger for this to happen is the need to draw up to 3 at the end of the next round.

That's how we've intuitively understood this rule since we started playing this game.
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Niko
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spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
I think we're overcomplicating this section of the rules and I don't agree that the logic is circular. The paragraph about reshuffling the discard pile is in a section of the rules which, to summarise, begins with "At the end of the round, draw up to 3 cards."

The paragraph we're discussing follows that first paragraph, therefore, it's essentially saying "If you can't draw up to 3 cards because your draw pile is empty, reshuffle the discard pile and then draw up to 3 cards".

In other words, you'll be reshuffling 7 cards and may end up drawing the card you've just played.

If, at the end of a round, you drew the last card on the draw pile and have 3 cards in hand, you wouldn't 'refshuffle and draw up to 3' again, like the last paragraph says, because you've already drawn a card and would end up with 4. The trigger for this to happen is the need to draw up to 3 at the end of the next round.

That's how we've intuitively understood this rule since we started playing this game.
And I've intuitively understood it to mean that you shuffle as soon as the pile is empty.

The sentence quoted by sphere is circular once you consider that it is placed after the instructions to draw to three cards. Since why draw to three cards if you've already done so?
Now if that sentence started with "If the draw pile is empty, [...]" Then I'd agree with you that you only shuffle when you have to draw, but as is it specifically says to shuffle "if you empty the pile" i.e. when it is emptied.
 
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
I think we're overcomplicating this section of the rules and I don't agree that the logic is circular. The paragraph about reshuffling the discard pile is in a section of the rules which, to summarise, begins with "At the end of the round, draw up to 3 cards."

The paragraph we're discussing follows that first paragraph, therefore, it's essentially saying "If you can't draw up to 3 cards because your draw pile is empty, reshuffle the discard pile and then draw up to 3 cards".

In other words, you'll be reshuffling 7 cards and may end up drawing the card you've just played.

If, at the end of a round, you drew the last card on the draw pile and have 3 cards in hand, you wouldn't 'refshuffle and draw up to 3' again, like the last paragraph says, because you've already drawn a card and would end up with 4. The trigger for this to happen is the need to draw up to 3 at the end of the next round.

That's how we've intuitively understood this rule since we started playing this game.
And I've intuitively understood it to mean that you shuffle as soon as the pile is empty.

The sentence quoted by sphere is circular once you consider that it is placed after the instructions to draw to three cards. Since why draw to three cards if you've already done so?
Now if that sentence started with "If the draw pile is empty, [...]" Then I'd agree with you that you only shuffle when you have to draw, but as is it specifically says to shuffle "if you empty the pile" i.e. when it is emptied.


In the French rules, it does begin with 'If a player has no cards in his draw pile' (i.e. 'If the draw pile is empty'), which is slightly different from 'If a player empties his draw pile'.

In other words, the trigger is clearly the state of the draw pile, not an action by the player.

Fabien has also confirmed this interpretation in a different thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23439372#23439372

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Niko
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spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
I think we're overcomplicating this section of the rules and I don't agree that the logic is circular. The paragraph about reshuffling the discard pile is in a section of the rules which, to summarise, begins with "At the end of the round, draw up to 3 cards."

The paragraph we're discussing follows that first paragraph, therefore, it's essentially saying "If you can't draw up to 3 cards because your draw pile is empty, reshuffle the discard pile and then draw up to 3 cards".

In other words, you'll be reshuffling 7 cards and may end up drawing the card you've just played.

If, at the end of a round, you drew the last card on the draw pile and have 3 cards in hand, you wouldn't 'refshuffle and draw up to 3' again, like the last paragraph says, because you've already drawn a card and would end up with 4. The trigger for this to happen is the need to draw up to 3 at the end of the next round.

That's how we've intuitively understood this rule since we started playing this game.
And I've intuitively understood it to mean that you shuffle as soon as the pile is empty.

The sentence quoted by sphere is circular once you consider that it is placed after the instructions to draw to three cards. Since why draw to three cards if you've already done so?
Now if that sentence started with "If the draw pile is empty, [...]" Then I'd agree with you that you only shuffle when you have to draw, but as is it specifically says to shuffle "if you empty the pile" i.e. when it is emptied.


In the French rules, it does begin with 'If a player has no cards in his draw pile' (i.e. 'If the draw pile is empty'), which is slightly different from 'If a player empties his draw pile'.

In other words, the trigger is clearly the state of the draw pile, not an action by the player.

Fabien has also confirmed this interpretation in a different thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23439372#23439372

Excuse my ignorance, but who is this Fabien? I don't see his name in the credits for Raptor and nothing else indicates that he is officially associated with the game.

Given that the designers are French it does likely that there's simply a translation error in the English rules. Official clarification would still be nice, but you have convinced me for what it's worth.

BTW: That was a much more compelling argument than "If you follow the instructions to draw up to 3 cards you will end up with 4 cards in hand"
 
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Spider Jerusalem
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Ze_German_Guy wrote:
spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
Ze_German_Guy wrote:
spiderjerusalemOX wrote:
I think we're overcomplicating this section of the rules and I don't agree that the logic is circular. The paragraph about reshuffling the discard pile is in a section of the rules which, to summarise, begins with "At the end of the round, draw up to 3 cards."

The paragraph we're discussing follows that first paragraph, therefore, it's essentially saying "If you can't draw up to 3 cards because your draw pile is empty, reshuffle the discard pile and then draw up to 3 cards".

In other words, you'll be reshuffling 7 cards and may end up drawing the card you've just played.

If, at the end of a round, you drew the last card on the draw pile and have 3 cards in hand, you wouldn't 'refshuffle and draw up to 3' again, like the last paragraph says, because you've already drawn a card and would end up with 4. The trigger for this to happen is the need to draw up to 3 at the end of the next round.

That's how we've intuitively understood this rule since we started playing this game.
And I've intuitively understood it to mean that you shuffle as soon as the pile is empty.

The sentence quoted by sphere is circular once you consider that it is placed after the instructions to draw to three cards. Since why draw to three cards if you've already done so?
Now if that sentence started with "If the draw pile is empty, [...]" Then I'd agree with you that you only shuffle when you have to draw, but as is it specifically says to shuffle "if you empty the pile" i.e. when it is emptied.


In the French rules, it does begin with 'If a player has no cards in his draw pile' (i.e. 'If the draw pile is empty'), which is slightly different from 'If a player empties his draw pile'.

In other words, the trigger is clearly the state of the draw pile, not an action by the player.

Fabien has also confirmed this interpretation in a different thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23439372#23439372

Excuse my ignorance, but who is this Fabien? I don't see his name in the credits for Raptor and nothing else indicates that he is officially associated with the game.


He's Matagot staff and, if I'm not mistaken, is also involved in translating rule books.
 
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