J.D. Hall
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I re-did the headline from the article. I think it's a bit more accurate.

http://us.cnn.com/2016/09/23/opinions/shell-shocked-white-wo...

Very solid reporting, good analysis that doesn't devolve into sociological babble. And while it's from, ahem, the "Clinton" New Network, it's balanced in laying the blame on both sides.

They also don't trust government -- but wants government to help them out:
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/21/news/economy/white-working-c...

And here they use the old "I'm OK, Everything else sucks" adage:
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/23/news/economy/white-working-c...
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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I get up at seven, yeah
And I go to work at nine
I got no time for livin'
Yes, I'm workin' all the time

It seems to me
I could live my life
A lot better than I think I am
I guess that's why they call me
They call me the workin' man

They call me the workin' man
I guess that's what I am

'Cause I get home at five o'clock
And I take myself out a ice, cold beer
Always seem to be wond'rin'
Why there's nothin' goin' down here

It seems to me
I could live my life
A lot better than I think I am
I guess that's why they call me
The workin' man

They call me the workin' man
I guess that's what I am

Well they call me the workin' man
I guess that's what I am

I get up at seven, yeah
And I go to work at nine
I got no time for livin'
Yes, I'm workin' all the time

It seems to me
I could live my life
A lot better than I think I am
I guess that's why they call me
They call me the workin' man

Well they call me the workin' man
I guess that's what I am

They call me the workin' man
I guess that's what I am
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J.D. Hall
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Oklahoma
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+1 early Rush reference
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Almost everything in that article that goes to causes is completely wrong.

Post WWII prosperity had the opposite relationship to regulations as what is stated in the article. In fact the wartime economy was centrally planned, and the best years of post-war growth coincided with the biggest deregulation in the country's history.

The wanton inflation of educational credentials and the spiraling costs are caused by government grants and subsidized student loans.

The working people's savings have been eroded and they've been sucked into a spiral of indebtedness by inflation and artificially low interest rates. The workers in manufacturing and other blue-collar typically white jobs are the very last recipients of new money. The money creation process takes what they have and lines the pockets of Wall Street investment bankers with it. They are indirectly expropriated for the benefit of the fattest parasites in all the land. The productive people must face declining real wages and spiraling cost of living as, once again, THEY ARE THE LAST ONES TO GET THE NEW MONEY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CREATES IT. Meanwhile, the first recipients and beneficiaries are masturbatory manipulators of meaningless financial gobbledygook who produce absolutely nothing.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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remorseless1 wrote:
+1 early Rush reference
It really does have relevance to the whole working man discussion, at least historically. Rush was discovered in the US because this song was played by a DJ in Cleveland, heavily working class in the 70's, and it was so popular Rush got a record deal. Rush has acknowledged that this was instrumental to their careers and allegedly dedicated their first two albums to the DJ. The lyrics are pretty good at conveying that blue collar "atmosphere" or culture that people tend to romanticize. Being blue collar in the 70's got the bills paid and fed the kids but it wasn't necessarily fulfilling.
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Walt
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In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
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Kiraboshi wrote:
Post WWII prosperity had the opposite relationship to regulations as what is stated in the article. In fact the wartime economy was centrally planned, and the best years of post-war growth coincided with the biggest deregulation in the country's history.

Yes, going from a command economy back to a free market is fairly a huge deregulation. However, you can't attribute the 1950s and 1960s economy to it because:
* US competitors in the global economy had been nuked, in one case literally.
* Incentives for research, employment, and other "positive" goals were hugely advantaged with a ~90% maximum tax rate (essentially, regulation by incentive).
* We were giving away college educations to vets, so you either had a four year head start on your career (WWII) or you got a free college education.
* New Deal business and union support regulations had a chance to work in a good economy.
* Foreign Aid to Europe (the Marshall plan) and Japan were huge, and increased to Japan and South Korea during the Korean War.
* Even Republican Eisenhower didn't touch the New Deal, but instead expanded Social Security and started the Interstate Highway System.

So basically, the 1920s ended with the stock market crash, due in part to lack of regulation, and classical no-debt policies crashing the economy. The 1930s were mainly spend in "Relief, Recovery, and Reform: relief for the unemployed and poor, recovery of the economy to normal levels, and reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression." The 1940s were WWII, effectively a giant government employment scheme in economic terms. In the 1950s and 1960s the US was dominant due to the destruction of WWII, and massive government spending on the Cold War and Vietnam.

In the 1970s and 1980s, what military people call "victory disease" caught up with US businesses: they hadn't upgraded the way especially Japanese business had, and they trounced us in the consumer electronics industry especially, then in steel and auto-making. (I personally have seen a stable business refuse to invest in better technology and go bankrupt because of it. Victory disease.)

And the financial regulations kept the economy from crashing, despite some severe oil shocks, until they were dismantled by dickless.

Now, what the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry (MITI) did to us in the '70s and '80s, China is trying now. They've succeeded with many products, like apparel, electronics, and solar cells--but not batteries, thanks much to Tesla.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The wanton inflation of educational credentials and the spiraling costs are caused by government grants and subsidized student loans.

Somewhat, but mainly no. I will certainly agree that degrees are required for jobs that don't need them. OTOH, achieving a degree proves an amount of smarts and dedication; you can't even get into good university without proving you're smarter than the average bear. Sure, a lot of what is learned in college, especially work patterns, are useless in the real world; however, if (unlike many) you retain the knowledge from a good program, you can run rings around the self-taught or trade-school-taught. Most importantly, you need to keep learning and keep mentally flexible so you can move with technology, even if you think you're going to avoid technological change.

The student loan program needs reform, and I think (???) has gotten it? ITT Tech shutting down was good. I haven't seen a good private trade school, and their degrees are not valued. They're more about getting students' money than they are about teaching or getting their graduates a job. Probably exceptional trade schools exist, but I haven't seen a graduate of one (professionally).

Nonetheless, we should, with appropriate safeguards, give away college education. If you look at how much more college grads make, the country more than makes it up in increased income tax revenue, including interest: there's just no need to have a lot of paperwork and give a cut to loan company investors. Kind of the same principle behind Basic Income.

I would suggest allowing $2000/yr for 2 years of community college--units must be transferable to four year colleges--and (assuming passing grades and gaining admission) $5000/yr for 2 following years of college or university, with the condition that has to pay for all tuition and fees--not books, equipment, or living costs--or the amount is cut in half. So, in California, community colleges can easily meet the $2000 limit; the state colleges and universities (Cal State) can meet the $5000 limit; UC would probably not be able to drop costs to $5000/yr since its charter is to do research.

At one point, California community colleges were nearly free for residents. I wish we'd get back to that. I tend to think with the need to retrain so often, that might be a good thing nationally.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The working people's savings have been eroded and they've been sucked into a spiral of indebtedness by inflation and artificially low interest rates.

Low interest rates lower interest on indebtedness. At 3% you can take on a billion dollar loan, stuff it into the S&P 500, and make boatloads of money. So, I'm going to vote for personal responsibility here, not that I would object to better financial education, or even remedial financial education.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The workers in manufacturing and other blue-collar typically white jobs are the very last recipients of new money. The money creation process takes what they have and lines the pockets of Wall Street investment bankers with it. They are indirectly expropriated for the benefit of the fattest parasites in all the land. The productive people must face declining real wages and spiraling cost of living as, once again, THEY ARE THE LAST ONES TO GET THE NEW MONEY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CREATES IT. Meanwhile, the first recipients and beneficiaries are masturbatory manipulators of meaningless financial gobbledygook who produce absolutely nothing.

Did you see the Basic Income thread?
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Steve
Thailand
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Kiraboshi wrote:
Post WWII prosperity had the opposite relationship to regulations as what is stated in the article. In fact the wartime economy was centrally planned, and the best years of post-war growth coincided with the biggest deregulation in the country's history.

Yes, going from a command economy back to a free market is fairly a huge deregulation. However, you can't attribute the 1950s and 1960s economy to it because:
* US competitors in the global economy had been nuked, in one case literally.
* Incentives for research, employment, and other "positive" goals were hugely advantaged with a ~90% maximum tax rate (essentially, regulation by incentive).
* We were giving away college educations to vets, so you either had a four year head start on your career (WWII) or you got a free college education.
* New Deal business and union support regulations had a chance to work in a good economy.
* Foreign Aid to Europe (the Marshall plan) and Japan were huge, and increased to Japan and South Korea during the Korean War.
* Even Republican Eisenhower didn't touch the New Deal, but instead expanded Social Security and started the Interstate Highway System.

So basically, the 1920s ended with the stock market crash, due in part to lack of regulation, and classical no-debt policies crashing the economy. The 1930s were mainly spend in "Relief, Recovery, and Reform: relief for the unemployed and poor, recovery of the economy to normal levels, and reform of the financial system to prevent a repeat depression." The 1940s were WWII, effectively a giant government employment scheme in economic terms. In the 1950s and 1960s the US was dominant due to the destruction of WWII, and massive government spending on the Cold War and Vietnam.

In the 1970s and 1980s, what military people call "victory disease" caught up with US businesses: they hadn't upgraded the way especially Japanese business had, and they trounced us in the consumer electronics industry especially, then in steel and auto-making. (I personally have seen a stable business refuse to invest in better technology and go bankrupt because of it. Victory disease.)

And the financial regulations kept the economy from crashing, despite some severe oil shocks, until they were dismantled by dickless.

Now, what the Japanese Ministry of International Trade and Industry (MITI) did to us in the '70s and '80s, China is trying now. They've succeeded with many products, like apparel, electronics, and solar cells--but not batteries, thanks much to Tesla.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The wanton inflation of educational credentials and the spiraling costs are caused by government grants and subsidized student loans.

Somewhat, but mainly no. I will certainly agree that degrees are required for jobs that don't need them. OTOH, achieving a degree proves an amount of smarts and dedication; you can't even get into good university without proving you're smarter than the average bear. Sure, a lot of what is learned in college, especially work patterns, are useless in the real world; however, if (unlike many) you retain the knowledge from a good program, you can run rings around the self-taught or trade-school-taught. Most importantly, you need to keep learning and keep mentally flexible so you can move with technology, even if you think you're going to avoid technological change.

The student loan program needs reform, and I think (???) has gotten it? ITT Tech shutting down was good. I haven't seen a good private trade school, and their degrees are not valued. They're more about getting students' money than they are about teaching or getting their graduates a job. Probably exceptional trade schools exist, but I haven't seen a graduate of one (professionally).

Nonetheless, we should, with appropriate safeguards, give away college education. If you look at how much more college grads make, the country more than makes it up in increased income tax revenue, including interest: there's just no need to have a lot of paperwork and give a cut to loan company investors. Kind of the same principle behind Basic Income.

I would suggest allowing $2000/yr for 2 years of community college--units must be transferable to four year colleges--and (assuming passing grades and gaining admission) $5000/yr for 2 following years of college or university, with the condition that has to pay for all tuition and fees--not books, equipment, or living costs--or the amount is cut in half. So, in California, community colleges can easily meet the $2000 limit; the state colleges and universities (Cal State) can meet the $5000 limit; UC would probably not be able to drop costs to $5000/yr since its charter is to do research.

At one point, California community colleges were nearly free for residents. I wish we'd get back to that. I tend to think with the need to retrain so often, that might be a good thing nationally.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The working people's savings have been eroded and they've been sucked into a spiral of indebtedness by inflation and artificially low interest rates.

Low interest rates lower interest on indebtedness. At 3% you can take on a billion dollar loan, stuff it into the S&P 500, and make boatloads of money. So, I'm going to vote for personal responsibility here, not that I would object to better financial education, or even remedial financial education.

Kiraboshi wrote:
The workers in manufacturing and other blue-collar typically white jobs are the very last recipients of new money. The money creation process takes what they have and lines the pockets of Wall Street investment bankers with it. They are indirectly expropriated for the benefit of the fattest parasites in all the land. The productive people must face declining real wages and spiraling cost of living as, once again, THEY ARE THE LAST ONES TO GET THE NEW MONEY WHEN THE GOVERNMENT CREATES IT. Meanwhile, the first recipients and beneficiaries are masturbatory manipulators of meaningless financial gobbledygook who produce absolutely nothing.

Did you see the Basic Income thread?

To the last point, I would like to add --

The New Deal labor laws worked to allow unions to 'force' management and shareholders to agree to pay the workers a larger share of the sales revenues. This is why workers did so well in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Then the labor laws were targeted by the rich because it obviously cost them money in the form of higher wages. With Regan they really began to be gutted and ignored.

Workers get less of the benefits of increases in productivity now than they did then, mostly because labor laws let businesses thumb their noses at workers desire for more pay, more of the revenue that they make possible.

Through the 90s at least there was a period where working families kept borrowing to "keep up with the Joneses" or to maintain their standard of living as wages failed to keep up with inflation plus expectations of 'growing income'. This bubble burst in 2001 and then again in 2008. All because labor law was gutted.

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Walt
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In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
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remorseless1 wrote:
I re-did the headline from the article. I think it's a bit more accurate.

I got side-tracked. (Derailed?) That was a good set of articles.

Relating to the race thread, I thought this was interesting (emphasis added):

In the 1950s, race outweighed education in determining wage rates. On average, white men with only a high school degree out-earned blacks with a college degree. Today, education outweighs race. But many working-class whites don't yet realize that this is not a result of reversed racial preferences but of new market preferences:

Studies confirm that employers still favor white men over blacks in most labor markets where applicants have equal education. When nearly identical résumés are sent out, for example, the candidate with a white-sounding name receives more callbacks than the applicant with a black-sounding name.

Some whites look at the gains of black professionals, formerly held back by legally enforced discrimination, and say that "those people" are taking a job that could be theirs. Yet if educated minorities weren't in the picture, it would be OTHER white people, from more privileged families, taking those jobs. And when liberals respond by framing equal rights as a matter of "compassion" or "tolerance," without mentioning the growing class divide, it's not entirely surprising that sections of the white working class mishear calls for diversity as endorsement of their accelerating marginalization.


On the class divide, see the Basic Income thread.

In one of the linked articles a West Virginian complains:

"We don't have another option.... Once we shut down the coal industry here there's nowhere to go, there's nothing else to do, there's no other jobs available."

So, WV put all its eggs in one basket. Not the most robust strategy. WV is beautiful. They could have a great tourism or retirement industry. But, they have to get over their coal fixation. I don't see any way to make coal significantly cheaper to produce and transport, or more valuable, so it's going to inevitably get stomped by solar and biofuel innovation. And this has been very clear for quite a while.
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for Trumps inevitable betrayl of his working class voters

Purity.

we have a name for those valleys of green and grey - Home!
 
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Greg Michealson
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remorseless1 wrote:
I re-did the headline from the article. I think it's a bit more accurate.

http://us.cnn.com/2016/09/23/opinions/shell-shocked-white-wo...

Very solid reporting, good analysis that doesn't devolve into sociological babble. And while it's from, ahem, the "Clinton" New Network, it's balanced in laying the blame on both sides.

They also don't trust government -- but wants government to help them out:
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/21/news/economy/white-working-c...

And here they use the old "I'm OK, Everything else sucks" adage:
http://money.cnn.com/2016/09/23/news/economy/white-working-c...


 
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Frank F
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Capitalism happened to them, just as it had been happening to all other races and peoples across the globe. The fact that they were once the benefactors and now are its victims is the source for their current ignorant rage. We are all victims of a sick culture, but it is only now becoming apparent to certain segments of the population. The fact that they believe that this candidate or that policy will fix everything is simultaneously amusing and sad. If we were fortunate enough to receive a relevant education, we would not be vulnerable to such manipulation and deceit.
 
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"If we were fortunate enough to receive a relevant education, we would not be vulnerable to such manipulation and deceit."

It still doesn't change anything when the only options you have are mill,pit or miltitary.

However the educated then sell out to the same system for the huge morgage , the new car and the holiday each year and convince they are happy as long they get them .
 
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Walt
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In memorium. Bob Hoover died 25 Oct 2016 at 94. In WWII he was shot down in a Spitfire and stole an FW-190 to escape. He spent decades at air shows flying Ole Yeller, shown
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growlley wrote:
However the educated then sell out to the same system for the huge morgage , the new car and the holiday each year and convince they are happy as long they get them .

Not if they know what they're doing. It's really pretty easy to become comfortably well to do. (Not rich, just well off compared to how much you earn.) You only need to follow one rule:

Spend substantially less than you earn.

(Of course, if you don't start with that rule, rule #0 is, pay off debt from highest interest to lowest interest. Given the tax advantages, in the US you can keep the home loan.)
 
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