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Subject: Player Aid on the board causing me confusion rss

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Chris Wilczewski
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I am pretty sure I understand the different movement types and linking. I'll start by saying I have 2nd edition so there's no problem with Yes/Nos.

On my board the listing for Draft Movement/Lateral movement says "Allowed: Before forward linked".

From this thread: Draft Movement it appears that lateral movement is allowed anytime before forward or rearward linked.

Should the board player-aid say "Before Linked" (instead of Before Forward Linked) under draft lateral movement? Or is there some way, when using Draft movement, you could be linked with cars behind you and still move laterally, as long as you haven't forward linked yet?

Hopefully my question makes sense...

Board image with player aid:
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jeff
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alenen wrote:
Or is there some way, when using Draft movement, you could be linked with cars behind you and still move laterally, as long as you haven't forward linked yet?



Correct...

You could be in the front of the pack with no one in front of you and everyone behind you, use draft movement, and move lateral anytime.


Edit: I'm a knuckle head see below.



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Harold Coleman
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I think it's OK as stated. It means sideways movement is allowed before the car links and starts moving forward, whether it is linked from behind, in front or both.
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Harold Coleman
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Expounding on AvidHunter's post, Draft Movement works exactly like Solo Movement if the car is not linked to others.
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Chris Wilczewski
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AvidHunter wrote:
alenen wrote:
Or is there some way, when using Draft movement, you could be linked with cars behind you and still move laterally, as long as you haven't forward linked yet?



Correct...

You could be in the front of the pack with no one in front of you and everyone behind you, use draft movement, and move lateral anytime.


Consider this sequence:
We have the green car who has just played a draft movement card.
He moves to the right, rear-links upon moving forward, and then wants to move laterally again. My understanding is that because he is linked behind, he cannot do this. If he CAN do this, where do the red cars go?


 
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Greg
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Been awhile since I've played, but for draft movement, I believe the red cars would stay where they are once the green car moves forward, because cars would become linked once the active car moves forward. Since the red cars aren't adjacent at the point green moves forward, then they are never linked and remain where they are.
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Chris Wilczewski
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hgcoleman wrote:
Expounding on AvidHunter's post, Draft Movement works exactly like Solo Movement if the car is not linked to others.

That's the thing tho - the car IS linked to others.
 
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Sean Tompkins
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Hahma wrote:
Been awhile since I've played, but for draft movement, I believe the red cars would stay where they are once the green car moves forward, because cars would become linked once the active car moves forward. Since the red cars aren't adjacent at the point green moves forward, then they are never linked and remain where they are.


Correct - you are not linked until you move forward with a car directly in front of or behind you - you can use this to break out of (or into) a draft line before moving forward.
 
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Greg
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alenen wrote:
hgcoleman wrote:
Expounding on AvidHunter's post, Draft Movement works exactly like Solo Movement if the car is not linked to others.

That's the thing tho - the car IS linked to others.


Only if green begins forward movement when it is in the same lane as the red cars.

Using a different example. If green started its turn right in front of red, as in one of the images, and first moved laterally, it would be able to move forward without the red cars following.

Linkage for draft movement occurs based on cars locations at the point the active car moves forward.

Lead movement linkage however occurs based on the location of cars at the start of the active car's turn.
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Chris Wilczewski
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The specific question is that in Frame 3, the Green car has linked to the 2 red cars behind it(Note that the cars have moved forward on the track!). Now in Frame 4, the green car wants to move laterally but is already linked behind. Is this legal?


I think it is not. Based on 6.4.2 "Once forward movement begins linkage to cars to the front and rear is automatic, and lateral movement is no longer allowed".

Assuming this is correct, the player aid is confusing to me because it indicates Lateral movement is allowed before forward linkage. I think it should say Lateral movement is allowed before ANY linkage, not solely forward linkage.
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jeff
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alenen wrote:

The specific question is that in Frame 3, the Green car has linked to the 2 red cars behind it(Note that the cars have moved forward on the track!). Now in Frame 4, the green car wants to move laterally but is already linked behind. Is this legal?


Yes in the sequence of pictures you did it correctly, with one exception...

The red car would occupy the space the green car just vacated, so it would actually be beside it. If the green car continued to move forward the red car would then move laterally and occupy that space with all the others following.


Edit: I'm a knuckle head see below.
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Chris Wilczewski
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AvidHunter wrote:
alenen wrote:

The specific question is that in Frame 3, the Green car has linked to the 2 red cars behind it(Note that the cars have moved forward on the track!). Now in Frame 4, the green car wants to move laterally but is already linked behind. Is this legal?


Yes in the sequence of pictures you did it correctly, with one exception...

The red car would occupy the space the green car just vacated, so it was actually be beside it.


I think your answer is correct for Lead movement, but not for Draft movement. From 6.4.2, Once they're linked, lateral movement is not allowed.
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Greg
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Ok, I didn't realize that they had moved I that center lane.

So then, considering they were linked and using draft movement, then the green car can't make another lateral move once it is linked and moved forward.

Lead movement allows you switch lanes once linked.
 
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jeff
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alenen wrote:
AvidHunter wrote:
alenen wrote:

The specific question is that in Frame 3, the Green car has linked to the 2 red cars behind it(Note that the cars have moved forward on the track!). Now in Frame 4, the green car wants to move laterally but is already linked behind. Is this legal?


Yes in the sequence of pictures you did it correctly, with one exception...

The red car would occupy the space the green car just vacated, so it was actually be beside it.


I think your answer is correct for Lead movement, but not for Draft movement. Thematically it makes no sense, and from 6.4.2, Once they're linked, lateral movement is not allowed.


hmmm now you have me questioning that I might be mixing that up. I have to check the rules now... I'm at work, I'll find a PDF.

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jeff
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alenen wrote:

I think your answer is correct for Lead movement, but not for Draft movement. From 6.4.2, Once they're linked, lateral movement is not allowed.


I can agree with that. I did mix the two up, I apologize for the confusion.


Honestly... I never use the chart on the maps and usually discourage new players when teaching the game from using it. I find it cumbersome and confusing. I always reference the rule book.

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Chris Wilczewski
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Hahma wrote:
Ok, I didn't realize that they had moved I that center lane.

So then, considering they were linked and using draft movement, then the green car can't make another lateral move once it is linked and moved forward.

Lead movement allows you switch lanes once linked.


Which brings me back to my original question: The player aid says lateral movement is allowed "Before forward linked". I think it should say "Before linked", because the addition of forward makes me think that the player aid is telling me I can move laterally when I'm rearward linked, which would allow me to break up and change draft lines mid movement.

Thematically, this does make sense right? Just because cars are drafting off of me from behind, doesn't mean I have to stay in front of them and make life easier for them. But when I'm drafting someone else, I have to stay behind them or lose the draft.

Ultimately I guess the question is: 6.4.2 says Draft Movement: no lateral movement once forward or rearward linked. The printed player aid says Draft movement: no lateral movement once forward linked.

Which is correct?
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Greg
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I've only played it that it is the same for forward and backward links. I just went by the rulebook.
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jeff
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Hahma wrote:
I've only played it that it is the same for forward and backward links. I just went by the rulebook.


Yeah me too.

But I like his idea that it's not thematically sensible that if you were only rear linked you could not move laterally. Using a draft card and not being forward linked with cars linked behind is like the same as a lead movement card, which could move laterally.

I might house rule that it's legal and go by the chart on the board now.

Subscribed to see where this goes...
 
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Chris Wilczewski
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If the Draft movement rules work like the player aid says, here is how I would think it would work:


Because they're not forward linked the Green car can move around changing who is drafting off of him, but unlike Lead movement, the red cars would not move up into the spot he vacated when he laterally moved infront of the blue car. There's nothing to draft there, so they don't get to follow along. At least in my mind.


(I am having way too much fun putting together racing scenarios and taking pictures. This game is awesome!)
 
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Jeff Horger
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Stop! Stop! Stop!... just stop.

First Forward Linked and Linked are redundant but used to confirm that the active car has to be moving forward to become linked. Since the active car may not move backward, ALL linkage is going forward. Being linked to cars behind you in draft movement is no different than being linked to cars in front of you. Linked is linked.

Draft & Pursuit linkage requires two separate actions:

Cars must be in a linkable position:
In front of you for Pursuit
Ahead or behind you for Draft

AND

The active car initiates forward movement with cars in those positions.

In the example, green could move laterally in front of the red line and if they did not move forward, continue to move laterally away from those red cars.

If green stops in front of the reds and moves the line forward using a draft movement, then it may no longer move laterally but must continue to move with the linked cars. (same effect as if the cars were in front of him and he passed behind)

Lead movement is completely different in that you are linked at the start of the turn before any moves are made or you are not. If you are, then everyone plays follow the leader. If not, you never will be.

Please, please, if you are unsure of the rules, do not jump in and confuse people worse.
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Jeff Horger
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alenen wrote:
If the Draft movement rules work like the player aid says, here is how I would think it would work:


Because they're not forward linked the Green car can move around changing who is drafting off of him, but unlike Lead movement, the red cars would not move up into the spot he vacated when he laterally moved infront of the blue car. There's nothing to draft there, so they don't get to follow along. At least in my mind.


(I am having way too much fun putting together racing scenarios and taking pictures. This game is awesome!)


In the above... Picture 1 is valid, picture 2 is valid, picture 3 is valid, picture 4 is illegal as the draft is already occurring and cannot be broken. Therefore picture 5 could never happen.
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Greg
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AvidHunter wrote:
Hahma wrote:
I've only played it that it is the same for forward and backward links. I just went by the rulebook.


Yeah me too.

But I like his idea that it's not thematically sensible that if you were only rear linked you could not move laterally. Using a draft card and not being forward linked with cars linked behind is like the same as a lead movement card, which could move laterally.

I might house rule that it's legal and go by the chart on the board now.

Subscribed to see where this goes...


I may not be thematically sensible, but it might be more about game play and balance, than about them. Forcing you to stay on your lane makes for some tougher decisions. Also, we aren't actually doing the number of laps that are in an actual race, so while it may seem thematic to be able to lateral move with draft and rear linked, it's not really going on because the race is abstracted. We also have the lead movement card to be able to lateral move when rear linked.
 
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Sean Tompkins
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Yay! Jeff has cleared up the issue - I had just gone back through the rulebook to make sure my understanding was right -

"A car activated with Draft Movement may push cars laterally as much as desired before beginning forward movement with cars linked either in front or behind. Once there are cars linked to the activated car and forward movement begins lateral movement is no longer allowed."

So while the board short-hand wording could be confusing, it refers to "linking caused by forward movement", not linking to forward-facing cars...
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Stig Morten
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Since jeff has already stepped in to clarify the correct way to play it, I don't have to find his earlier clarification when the same discussion occured earlier.

That earlier discussion and Jeff's clarification was part of why the same rule has been clarified even more in Grand Prix

 
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Chris Wilczewski
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Jeff,
Thank you for clarification, this means the rulebook is the correct and we should read the player aid as though it says "Before Linked" right? The way it's written, it implies that forward links prevent lateral movement, but backward links do not (Otherwise, why specify forward?)

The whole bit about linking not occurring until forward movement is already covered by the * in the "Linked?" table on the player aid.


 
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