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BattleCON: Trials of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Is this game being revised too often? rss

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Richard Sampson
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Every new game in BattleCON has introduced a changed to the core game (updated bases, alternate finishers, pulse gauge, etc.). Obviously these aren't huge changes, but they are small things that just lead to inconsistencies between each game. Do you think these changes are worthwhile or do you think they are adding minor improvements too often?

Personally I feel like it is a bit overwhelming and the current system doesn't have enough time to fully settle before it is changed up. Hopefully they can finally stick with what they have since each character has a copy of the bases because I feel like I already have enough outdated base cards.
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Rob Cramer
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Granted, I am barely invested in the BattleCON system since I only own Fate, but I kinda admire L99 adjusting the system as it goes along. If something is off, L99 isn't afraid to adjust. Granted, I am coming from a Summoner Wars background where balance issues have been basically ignored for years. SW died because Plaid Hat was too hands off, so I would rather have a publisher be heavily involved with changes than to sit back and ignore their core base.

But then again, I can see how this could become a George Lucas/Peter Jackson situation where the creator doesn't know when to stop.

To sum up: Probably not? Maybe?
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Matthew Vantries
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What are they changing?
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Aaron White
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I am a big fan of Sirlin Games and they have made changes on their games.

Flash Duel Revised -> Flash Duel Revised 2nd Printing
Puzzle Strike 1st -> 2nd -> 3rd Edition
Yomi 1st -> 2nd Edition

Gamelyn Games done a 2nd edition of TEK with more polished rules, clearer wording, layout and a couple of new rules.

Tiny Epic Kingdoms 1st -> 2nd Edition

While minor, Cheapass Games done a new edition for Brawl with new card layout art, but they gave Darwin another Clear which was sooo needed.

Brawl 1st -> 2nd Edition

Darkest Night had a 2nd edition Kickstarter that did not change heaps of rules, but came in a new box with proper organisation for blights and heroes. It also had an improved board and some cards were bigger.

Darkest Night 1st -> Darkest Night 2nd Edition

What all these games have in common is I bought them. I did not think it, but I have come to appreciate when my favourite designs get more work done to them. I did not plan this, but over time I have been putting my money into the same games over buying new ones. So the changes to BattleCON for me are worth it.

To address the changes specifically.

Dodge: Thumbs up.
Tuck Boxes: Thumbs up.
New Force Gauge (with tokens: Thumbs up.
Streamlined Rules: Thumbs up.
Focus on smaller cast: Thumbs up.

I can understand some people not liking some changes, but for me I am all smiles with this edition of BattleCON. Cannot wait.
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Ed Hughes
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The most significant change is changing Dash into Dodge, two bases that do the same thing, albeit in completely different ways.
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Richard Sampson
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They are also changing something about how the force gauge works but I don't know the details.

Other games have done it but here they are partial editions. For instance people backing all in will be getting 3 versions of the game. This is like TEK only getting the update in the expansion.
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Kyle Currie
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I feel similarly. On one hand, change isn't a bad thing, and they're trying to make BattleCON the best it can be. But I'm a little OCD about consistency, and everything is being changed up all the time.

Devastation was great, I loved it.

War Remastered was straightforward and gave more of the stuff I loved. They changed the base art to a style I liked and was happy with.

Fate introduced the Force Gauge, which I've never tried, but it seems like it's becoming the "default" or "proper" way to play, which kinda makes me feel like I'm not keeping up.

Trials has changed the storage solution, the graphic design, the bases AGAIN (to a style I don't like) and giving every fighter their own set of bases, might be changing the word "Move" to "Shift" (I see zero reason to do this), and removed tokens in favor of small cards. In addition, it sounds like the fighters here are specifically balanced for Force Gauge play. So what about when you don't play with Force Gauge? Or all the previous fighters that weren't originally built with Force Gauge in mind?

The only thing I like out of all those most recent changes is the storage solution - the individual boxes are awesome.

Otherwise:
- If they change the word "Move" to "shift" then it feels like every fighter earlier than Trials is outdated, and "shift" is way more confusing

- The change to small cards instead of tokens may make sense financially but it also makes the new fighters feel "cheaper." They just don't mesh with every fighter that came before. Same reasoning applies to the graphic design change.

- I don't understand why each fighter gets it's own set of bases at all. Sure, it lets every fighter be fully contained, but I don't need 10 sets of bases. I need two. And since I have all previous BattleCON boxes, I have way more than 2 already. I'd rather we go back to 2 or 4 sets of bases in the box, and put the money from printing all the extras into bringing back tokens

More than anything else, it just means that Trials fighters are going to look and feel out of place next to all the others, or vice versa - all previous fighters won't feel up to snuff. The lack of consistency drives me nuts.

Maybe I'm just hard to please, and I'm still in for Trials and any BattleCON in the future. The game still PLAYS the same, so in the end, these are just graphical nitpicks. But they affect the overall presentation of the game, and I think that matters for any board game. Maybe I just need an upgrade pack for all previous fighters with mini cards instead of tokens, storage boxes, their own bases and the updated design....but I guess at that point you'd have to rebuy the games entirely in a new format.
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Elyklord wrote:


...
- The change to small cards instead of tokens may make sense financially but it also makes the new fighters feel "cheaper." They just don't mesh with every fighter that came before. Same reasoning applies to the graphic design change.

- I don't understand why each fighter gets it's own set of bases at all. Sure, it lets every fighter be fully contained, but I don't need 10 sets of bases. I need two. And since I have all previous BattleCON boxes, I have way more than 2 already. I'd rather we go back to 2 or 4 sets of bases in the box, and put the money from printing all the extras into bringing back tokens
...


Couldn't agree more. I'd love for Brad to change his mind, take the money going into 11+ sets of smudgy bases and put that into quality tokens. But perhaps the desire to have tuckboxes, which I am genarally in favor of, is driving that decision. Which brings to mind another couple questions.

Are we getting summary cards for the new fighters?
Are we even getting cardboard standees?
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Kyle Currie
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Altropos wrote:
Are we getting summary cards for the new fighters?
Are we even getting cardboard standees?


We're definitely getting summary cards, those have been a staple and I don't see those going away.

And they only mentioned tokens/markers/etc being replaced by cards, I think it's safe to say standees for the fighters are still in there.
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Chad Ackerman
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This is largely the reason why I sold off my physical copy and went all-in on BattleCON Online. I'm in favor of the rules changes and tweaks to update game balance, but I'd rather just have fun with it in a digital implementation rather than trying to figure out what works with what in the physical game.

And when I want to play a game with a bunch of characters in the Indines universe I still have Pixel Tactics and Argent: The Consortium which are solid games with tight rules.

I do miss my Devastation of Indines, though... I had a lot of fun with the BattleQuest mode.

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Ed Hughes
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Unfortunately, Brad seems less than receptive to fan feedback on these issues.
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Aaron White
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themanfromsaturn wrote:
Unfortunately, Brad seems less than receptive to fan feedback on these issues.

Is that fair? Changes have happened because of fan feedback, haven't they?

Otherwise we might still have original edition War of Indines.

I know it is divisive because there are so many things to love about BattleCON that people disagree on what they are. But I really disagree with the idea that Level99Games are not listening to us.

Note: Nothing wrong with original edition War of Indines.
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Richard Sampson
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BTW it is also worth mentioning that Devastation is supposedly going to have a revised edition scheduled for 2018. I know Brad mentioned breaking it up, and I am sure it will have the changes introduced here, but personally I am a bit worried they will tweak the system again.

I have no problem with change (I upgraded Yomi to 2nd edition and TEK to 2nd edition), but I think the approach here of consistently tweaking the system a small bit every year or two is kind of killing the game. They have said they want the game to be more approachable, but these inconsistencies are more detrimental to the approachability of the game than the things they are changing.
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Kyle Currie
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Rook96 wrote:
themanfromsaturn wrote:
Unfortunately, Brad seems less than receptive to fan feedback on these issues.

Is that fair? Changes have happened because of fan feedback, haven't they?

Otherwise we might still have original edition War of Indines.

I know it is divisive because there are so many things to love about BattleCON that people disagree on what they are. But I really disagree with the idea that Level99Games are not listening to us.

Note: Nothing wrong with original edition War of Indines.


Agreed with Aaron, I think Level 99 is extremely receptive to feedback, which is why I feel comfortable airing my opinions. But we also have to accept the fact that regardless of feedback, BattleCON is their game, and they can make whatever changes they want to it.

Level 99 even has an entire playtester forum for people to check out and provide feedback for their games as they're being developed. They're one of the more receptive game companies I know.
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Aaron White
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ras2124 wrote:
BTW it is also worth mentioning that Devastation is supposedly going to have a revised edition scheduled for 2018. I know Brad mentioned breaking it up, and I am sure it will have the changes introduced here, but personally I am a bit worried they will tweak the system again.

I have no problem with change (I upgraded Yomi to 2nd edition and TEK to 2nd edition), but I think the approach here of consistently tweaking the system a small bit every year or two is kind of killing the game. They have said they want the game to be more approachable, but these inconsistencies are more detrimental to the approachability of the game than the things they are changing.

I only just commented on Kickstarter that I hope they break up Devastation into similar 10 character sets and give them some love. Glad to see this is being entertained.

I admit, I love the tweaks. But if we get next set and they change the bases or rules again . . . that would be too much. Set the standard with Trials, then stick with it.
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Brian
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BuckWilde wrote:
Granted, I am coming from a Summoner Wars background where balance issues have been basically ignored for years. SW died because Plaid Hat was too hands off, so I would rather have a publisher be heavily involved with changes than to sit back and ignore their core base.


I only played Summoner Wars up to the original Master Set release, but never knew about this. I'm hoping Plaid Hat Games doesn't do the same with Ashes but it seems like they're being proactive (like with the Enchanted Violinist).

ras2124 wrote:
BTW it is also worth mentioning that Devastation is supposedly going to have a revised edition scheduled for 2018. I know Brad mentioned breaking it up, and I am sure it will have the changes introduced here, but personally I am a bit worried they will tweak the system again.


A remaster? That's interesting. I don't mind paying for a revised edition but I have so many boardgames lying around that I don't know what to do with the older copy.

Back on topic, I don't mind the tweaks and changes, but would be nice if there was like an upgrade kit if Brad decides to revisit the old characters with the new changes. But what I do mind is the changes in print quality and card sizes with the last few releases. I got all these great base cards but can't use them with the original without sleeving the cards in opaque sleeves.
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Richard Sampson
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I think the way changes have been in other games is significantly better. Take Yomi for instance. The game came out in 2011. They then had an online version of the game which they introduced the expansion characters into. They then tweaked the game as need until they thought it was ready, and then rereleased the entire game + expansion in a new edition. If you wanted to upgraded, you could just buy it and be done.

Here I feel like it is starting to turn into an endless chase for a new edition. Don't get me wrong, I am all about new characters and happy to buy them, but I would have rather they hold off on this until they were ready to release all of BattleCON in a finalized edition. It could be separate boxes and products, but something that is the completely updated edition of the game. Instead we get a 10 character pack that in a way obsoletes all the characters that have come before and pretty much says if you want all your characters to match, you are going to wait several years for us to rerelease the entire game (and we might continue to change things along the way).
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Thiago Colas
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Well, until we get a variation of the game that removes clashing, I'll say BattleCON still needs more changes.

Yes, the changes are happening, and not everyone will be happy it never happens. But the game is improving,and that's what really matters. Expansions that completely change the base game agree so common to be the rule instead of the exception. So yeah...
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Jools Thomas
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Changing the movement text on the new characters so as to be incompatible with all previous characters is completely unforgivable for me. I'm fine with the other changes.
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Matthew Vantries
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Uck, these changes sound terrible. I can't believe I'm saying this but I think I'm not going to back Trials and be done with getting anymore stuff for the game (and I'm a completionist that has everything for the game (including all the promo characters)).
I hate change for the sake of change. I was really excited for War Remastered because before that, the old version War characters really clashed with the Devestation ones. And now the stuff I already have is going to clash with everything new that comes out (counters vs cards, generic bases vs character specific bases)? Count me out. gulp
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Ed Hughes
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Rook96 wrote:
themanfromsaturn wrote:
Unfortunately, Brad seems less than receptive to fan feedback on these issues.

Is that fair? Changes have happened because of fan feedback, haven't they?

Otherwise we might still have original edition War of Indines.

I know it is divisive because there are so many things to love about BattleCON that people disagree on what they are. But I really disagree with the idea that Level99Games are not listening to us.

Note: Nothing wrong with original edition War of Indines.


Yeah, I think it is fair, at least as far as it pertains to the changes trials is making. Many players have made very valid criticisms, particularly regarding shift and the use if mini cards that have gone completely unaddressed.
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Denis Litvak
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I agree with what's been said in this thread and as a result have just pulled my pledge. It's unfortunate as Battlecon is one of my favorite boardgames, but the combinations of strange changes and a poor kickstarter campaign means I can't support Level99.

A few of the issues I have:

Changing "move" to "shift" adds no value nor does it make it easier to understand. It just adds more confusion between sets. This is my biggest gripe by far. It's such a little thing yet it bothers me to no end.

Changing the tokens to minicards adds more inconsistencies between sets and is an unnecessary change.

Balancing the characters around Force has me worried since I'm not a particular fan of it. Force is too fiddly for me compared to the more streamlined single action card. I don't expect this to get changed but is just a personal gripe of mine on the direction of the game.

I'm actually okay with the change to dash, it seems like a good balance change. I'm just not a fan of having to use new base cards since this may require opaque sleeves (I already have everything in clear sleeves).

Character art changes I feel are for the worse. Dareios' latest art has anatomical issues (small head and legs compared to long torso) and Cindra' head shrinks between forms.

There are a few other nagging issues that I have, but these are a few of the major ones.

I'll gladly re-up my pledge if some of these issues are addressed or at least considered.

Edit: Made the post sound less harsh and less me venting on my frustration.
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Kyle Currie
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I would like to add that although I still stand behind my initial feedback, I personally think it's a bit early to be pulling pledges. Some of the points others and I have brought up here have so far only been seen in the playtester forums, and not anywhere on the main KS page (changing "move" to "shift" being a big one I see missing). And I certainly didn't intend for my opinions to influence people in pulling their support for the game.

It appears that Brad is going to be making updates to discuss the reasoning behind a lot of the changes we're discussing here, so it might be good to sit tight and see what Brad writes up! I wouldn't be surprise if one or two of the changes has already been altered due to feedback here and in the comments.
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Denis Litvak
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Elyklord wrote:
I would like to add that although I still stand behind my initial feedback, I personally think it's a bit early to be pulling pledges. Some of the points others and I have brought up here have so far only been seen in the playtester forums, and not anywhere on the main KS page (changing "move" to "shift" being a big one I see missing). And I certainly didn't intend for my opinions to influence people in pulling their support for the game.

It appears that Brad is going to be making updates to discuss the reasoning behind a lot of the changes we're discussing here, so it might be good to sit tight and see what Brad writes up! I wouldn't be surprise if one or two of the changes has already been altered due to feedback here and in the comments.


The use of "shift" is displayed on the kickstarter page with the example of style and base combination.

My decision to pull my pledge wasn't one made lightly. I love these games and have supported every single past campaign. But I can't keep pledging givin the information that's currently available. I'll gladly hop back on if I discover that these criticisms are considered.
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Definitely to each your own, but I think you would have to be crazy to pull your pledge. I know very little other than the Kickstarter info, but my impressions are the following.

1. Best balance with smaller pool of characters.
2. Best and clearest rules.
3. Rebalanced force gauge with actual tokens to ante rather than spinners.
4. Character guide giving the story proper attention.
5. Tuck boxes for each character with everything you need to play.

So whether this is compatible with the rest is not important - getting just this box to the table and playing it should give the best BattleCON experience ever! So I will be keeping my pledge for sure.
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