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Subject: On Hell rss

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Greg
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Currently there are at least 3 popular views of the doctrine of Hell.

1.) Eternal Conscious Torment: This is the predominant view held by most Christians. It's the view that unbelievers will be sentenced to a place called Hell for eternity where they will be separated from God and in torment forever for their sins and unwillingness to be forgiven by faith.

2.) Annihilation or Conditional Immortality: This is a view held by a growing number of believers these days, including myself. It has by far the most biblical support and will be the view that I explain below.

3.) Purgatory-Like Hell: This view is held by a small number of Christians and is mainly a philosophical argument that says that love will win in the end and either all or some of the people in hell will repent and become a part of God's family. It's held by Universalists and is a more liberal view.

Conditional immortality or Annihilation is the view that hell is not a place. Rather it is an event by which unbelievers will be subjected to a trial, sentenced to be in agony for a comensorate amount of time for their crimes, and will be finally executed in front of all the host of heaven as an example in a fiery display of destruction.

The idea builds support all over the bible going as far back as Genesis when the serpent told Adam and Eve,"You will not SURELY die?" God had told them on the day that they eat the fruit, they would surely die.

Flash forward to Revelation and we have description of a Great White Throne judgment where the dead are raised and judged according to what they had done. Those that were found guilty were thrown alive into a lake of fire. And this event was described as the "second death". This is a very peculiar description of the event going on. We believe that this is what God meant by you shall surely die. It wasn't the first death he meant. He was foretelling about a second death that would bring finality to existence.

So where is the support for this in the bible? One of the most compelling verses is found here:

Quote:
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬ ‭ESV‬

Here we see Jesus warning about how we should fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. This is where we get the idea of "Conditional Immortality". It's partially is derived by the idea that this verse seems to show that the human soul is not immortal, but can be destroyed in hell.

Quote:
“in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Here we see Jesus returning with the angels in a fiery display of "eternal destruction". We see this to mean a finality of the destruction, one that will mark the end of existence for the receivers.

Quote:
“if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

It really doesn't get much clearer than that. These towns were destroyed by fire coming down from heaven as we are told in the OT.

Quote:
““For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Again we see this imagery of fire and destruction of the wicked.

There are a lot more direct verses that I can go to but let me highlight some of the things that this version seems to have an edge on over the traditional version.

1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.

2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.

3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.

I welcome any discussion of these things as well as any verses that you would also like to go over in regards to the topic of hell. There are a few verses that must be dealt with in this view that seem to teach ECT and I am sure we will get to them in this thread before long. This is a hard doctrine for a lot of believer and unbelievers alike to think about.
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Mac Mcleod
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Hell man, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

phate wrote:
Purgatory-Like Hell: This view is held by a small number of Christians...





http://www.catholic-sf.org/ns.php?newsid=18&id=61890
Quote:
What Catholics believe: 10 truths about purgatory
October 30th, 2013
By Valerie Schmalz

Does purgatory still exist? Even though we don’t hear about it as much as in earlier times, Catholics do believe in purgatory. It is a matter of faith, supported by the Bible and tradition, clarified at the Council of Florence in 1439 and the Council of Trent (1545-1563) and explained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Here is what we know about purgatory.


1. Purgatory exists: The Catechism of the Catholic Church states there are three states of the church, those who are living on earth, those who are in purgatory and those who are in heaven with God.


2. It is not a second chance: The soul is already saved. Purgatory is a place to pay off debts for sins that were forgiven but for which sufficient penance had not been done on earth.


3. It is not an actual place: Blessed John Paul II said in an Aug.4, 1999 general audience that purgatory was a state of being: “The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence.” Pope Benedict XVI said in a Jan. 12, 2011 general audience, “This is purgatory, an interior fire.”


4. Purgatory is not punishment but God’s mercy: “Few people can say they are prepared to stand before God,” says Susan Tassone, author of “Prayers, Promises, and Devotions for the Holy Souls in Purgatory” (Our Sunday Visitor, 2012). “If we didn’t have purgatory there would be very few people in heaven, because it would be heaven or hell. It is his mercy that allows us to prepare to be with him in heaven.”


5. Our prayers for the souls in purgatory help them achieve heaven: “The doctrine of purgatory recalls how radically we take love of neighbor,” says Sulpician Father Gladstone Stevens, vice rector and dean of men at St. Patrick’s Seminary & University, Menlo Park. “The obligation to pray for each other does not cease when biological life ends. God wants us to always pray for each other, work for each other’s redemption.”


6. The souls in purgatory can intercede for those on earth but cannot pray for themselves: The Catechism of the Catholic Church (958) states: “… the church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; … Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.”


7. God does not send souls to purgatory – each soul sends itself to purgatory: Once a soul sees itself with the light of God, it realizes it cannot stay in his presence until all imperfections are wiped away.“The soul chooses,” Tassone says.


8. There is no fire in purgatory: But each soul is aflame with the pain of being separated from God and with the desire to be purified so it can be in the beatific vision. Each soul also feels joy knowing it will one day be with God, Father Stevens and Tassone say.


9. There is a special day and month to pray for the souls in purgatory: Nov. 2 or All Souls’ Day is the day set aside and November is the month in the liturgical calendar to pray especially for all the souls who are in purgatory. Nov. 2 is called “The Commemoration of All the Faithful Departed,” but the church asks us to pray always for each other, including for the souls in purgatory.


10. Prayers for souls in purgatory always count: Pope Benedict says in his encyclical “Spe Salve” (“On Christian Hope”), regarding the souls of the dead, “ … in the communion of souls simple terrestrial time is superseded. It is never too late to touch the heart of another, nor is it ever in vain.”


http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123...

Quote:
III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY

1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608

...


To be fair, it was here on RSP I learned just how many catholics there are in the world. It's a boatload (over a billion). I had a preconcieved notion that protestants were more common.



---

Look, I've mostly stopped reading yer stuff. But what I see of it, you feel like one of those devout guys who grew up in a strongly religious environment where nothing was ever questioned seriously and then they were suddenly mixed in with everyone else in college.

---

So the main thing I got ta ask yah... Does your faith make YOU happy? My mom's faith made her happy as she neared death (and went thru 4 hospital visits that were miserable but short at least).

I'm non religious and I'm happy because of it. I'm more about playing games, enjoying the time I have with the grandkids, and sharing sex (I average more hours per week on sex than I spend on television and it is amazing fun and astonishing to see the buttons it pushes as I continue to explore my sexuality even at this late age.)

The worst thing I experience is the people who I know that are strongly faithful but it makes them miserable... and has always made them miserable. If yer faith is a comfort to you, then cool beans. I just think it's tragic that faith can make some people suffer so terribly and yet- it's faith- they can't decide not to have it.
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John Hathorn
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Phate999 wrote:
Conditional immortality or Annihilation is the view that hell is not a place. Rather it is an event by which unbelievers will be subjected to a trial, sentenced to be in agony for a comensorate amount of time for their crimes, and will be finally executed in front of all the host of heaven as an example in a fiery display of destruction.

The idea builds support all over the bible going as far back as Genesis when the serpent told Adam and Eve,"You will not SURELY die?" God had told them on the day that they eat the fruit, they would surely die.

Flash forward to Revelation and we have description of a Great White Throne judgment where the dead are raised and judged according to what they had done. Those that were found guilty were thrown alive into a lake of fire. And this event was described as the "second death". This is a very peculiar description of the event going on. We believe that this is what God meant by you shall surely die. It wasn't the first death he meant. He was foretelling about a second death that would bring finality to existence.

So where is the support for this in the bible? One of the most compelling verses is found here:

Quote:
“And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:28‬ ‭ESV‬

Here we see Jesus warning about how we should fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. This is where we get the idea of "Conditional Immortality". It's partially is derived by the idea that this verse seems to show that the human soul is not immortal, but can be destroyed in hell.

Quote:
“in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8-9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Here we see Jesus returning with the angels in a fiery display of "eternal destruction". We see this to mean a finality of the destruction, one that will mark the end of existence for the receivers.

Quote:
“if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:6‬ ‭ESV‬‬

It really doesn't get much clearer than that. These towns were destroyed by fire coming down from heaven as we are told in the OT.

Quote:
““For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts.”
‭‭Malachi‬ ‭4:1-3‬ ‭ESV‬‬

Again we see this imagery of fire and destruction of the wicked.

There are a lot more direct verses that I can go to but let me highlight some of the things that this version seems to have an edge on over the traditional version.

1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.

2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.

3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jasus endured for us.

I welcome any discussion of these things as well as any verses that you would also like to go over in regards to the topic of hell. There are a few verses that must be dealt with in this view that seem to teach ECT and I am sure we will get to them in this thread before long. This is a hard doctrine for a lot of believer and unbelievers alike to think about.

Seems like a loving and forgiving God to me. Or...
Seems like this God guy and his Son, Jesus, are consumed by a lot of hate for those that don't beg them for forgiveness.
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Adam Alleman
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Greg
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@Stephen - that purgatory you are talking about is slightly different. It's before "hell". The one I described is what we normally think as hell where unbelievers go.

Also sex is a good thing created by God for us to enjoy. My wife and I enjoy it a lot too. The bible speaks of it as "knowing" each other and as becoming "one flesh". It's one of the most intimate unions that human beings can share with one another. And it relates to the mystical Union of Christ to the Church.

This world has perverted sex just like everything else though and I am sure that you do all sorts of sick twisted things that your mom would turn over in her grave if she knew about. It's addicting and you want more and more until more is not enough then you want more.

My life is pretty good for the most part. I am happy. I love people. All people. And God has really done a number on me ever since I truely went all in.
 
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Phate999 wrote:
This world has perverted sex just like everything else though and I am sure that you do all sorts of sick twisted things that your mom would turn over in her grave if she knew about. It's addicting and you want more and more until more is not enough then you want more.




Ever done anything non-missionary? It isn't Biblical.

(Glass houses and all, right?)
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Mac Mcleod
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Phate999 wrote:
@Stephen - that purgatory you are talking about is slightly different. It's before "hell". The one I described is what we normally think as hell where unbelievers go.

Also sex is a good thing created by God for us to enjoy. My wife and I enjoy it a lot too. The bible speaks of it as "knowing" each other and as becoming "one flesh". It's one of the most intimate unions that human beings can share with one another. And it relates to the mystical Union of Christ to the Church.

This world has perverted sex just like everything else though and I am sure that you do all sorts of sick twisted things that your mom would turn over in her grave if she knew about. It's addicting and you want more and more until more is not enough then you want more.

My life is pretty good for the most part. I am happy. I love people. All people. And God has really done a number on me ever since I truely went all in.


I very much doubt that as my mother had a powerful sex drive, laughed all the time, and a happy spirit tho an attraction to mean drunks. I guess I inherited the first two from her-- fortunately I skipped the mean drunk part.

I'm glad you are happy tho.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jasus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?
 
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B Schneider
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Christians don't agree what hell is? You mean this divinely inspired book is vague and contradictory enough for people that desperatley want to believe in it to disagree on something so important?

Hmmm.

I've brought this up in conversation with coworkers that tried to assure me I will be forgiven if I only take that Leap of Faith and just believe.

To which I told them I am pretty sure I can't be forgiven due to Matthew 12:32

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" - they didnt quite know what to make of it.

A quite interesting verse, because really I think this Jesus character is the least bad of the three baddies. His message of redemption through scapegoating is quite perverse, but other than that he did have on the whole some quite good stuff to say.

One of the very devout guys I was working with didn't seem to know that verse existed and needed to look it up, then kind of poo-poo'd it away, and the other one, doing his Masters in theology really could not come up with an answer as to how one could even commit this seemingly gravest of grave offenses.

I countered if it wasnt important why would it merit mention? and I am pretty sure when I speak about the ridiculousness of the concept of god(s) I am directly speaking against the "Holy Spirit". So don't bother with me, I am already unforgivable.

Is the OP sure, even in a moment of doubt, that he never committed this unpardonable sin? Also, do you have an idea of how this sin is committed? I found it interesting that some Christians that I felt were extremely knowledgeable completely glossed over this most important little easter egg in Matthew...

Or like my coworkers, would you be more inclined to poopoo it away and carry on as if the verse never existed. But technically you might never ever be forgiven even for a little slip up. Rape, mass murder, genocide, all absolutely forgiveable. Moment of desperation due perhaps to being a victim of one of these crimes - hell forever.

Ouch.
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Life is objectively better when you realize that sin and hell are fictions.
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Greg
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slatersteven wrote:
Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Yes on the ECT model, it would appear that way. That's one of the issues with it.
Quote:
Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Your questions seems to show that I did not explain this well. My bad. What I meant was that on the ECT model, unbelievers continue sinning for eternity in hell. Essentially they get quarantined off in their own section with Satan and never are able to be redeemed.

Quote:
Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?

Paul answered that. Check out the entire chapter of Romans 6.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Yes on the ECT model, it would appear that way. That's one of the issues with it.
Quote:
Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Your questions seems to show that I did not explain this well. My bad. What I meant was that on the ECT model, unbelievers continue sinning for eternity in hell. Essentially they get quarantined off in their own section with Satan and never are able to be redeemed.

Quote:
Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?

Paul answered that. Check out the entire chapter of Romans 6.
I thought you were going to explain it?

I am asking your opinion.
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Greg
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von wildensee wrote:

Christians don't agree what hell is? You mean this divinely inspired book is vague and contradictory enough for people that desperatley want to believe in it to disagree on something so important?

Hmmm.

Quite frankly yes. Despite what the masses might think, the bible is not an open and shut case. It's vague on a lot of things and leaves the door open for a lot of different takes.

Quote:


I've brought this up in conversation with coworkers that tried to assure me I will be forgiven if I only take that Leap of Faith and just believe.

To which I told them I am pretty sure I can't be forgiven due to Matthew 12:32

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" - they didnt quite know what to make of it.

A quite interesting verse, because really I think this Jesus character is the least bad of the three baddies. His message of redemption through scapegoating is quite perverse, but other than that he did have on the whole some quite good stuff to say.

One of the very devout guys I was working with didn't seem to know that verse existed and needed to look it up, then kind of poo-poo'd it away, and the other one, doing his Masters in theology really could not come up with an answer as to how one could even commit this seemingly gravest of grave offenses.

I countered if it wasnt important why would it merit mention? and I am pretty sure when I speak about the ridiculousness of the concept of god(s) I am directly speaking against the "Holy Spirit". So don't bother with me, I am already unforgivable.

There are many theories on what this unpardonable sin is. Most literally it seems to be anyone who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit. From the context, these Jews were claiming that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of Satan. My take on the passage is that it is talking about a person who resists the Holy Spirit internally when the gospel message comes. You see when the message of Jesus is preached, something inside a person is shocked back to life momentarily so as to receive the words and decide to agree to their truth or resist them. This is how God brings the sinner to a point to offer them salvation. If a person resists this only lifeline, they will perish and comment the unpardonable sin. Others think that this sin is unbelief. Since belief in Jesus grants you forgiveness, this is the only sin that is unpardonable. That makes sense too.

Quote:

Is the OP sure, even in a moment of doubt, that he never committed this unpardonable sin?

Yes, I am sure, or else I wouldn't be a believer.


Quote:
Also, do you have an idea of how this sin is committed? I found it interesting that some Christians that I felt were extremely knowledgeable completely glossed over this most important little easter egg in Matthew...

Or like my coworkers, would you be more inclined to poopoo it away and carry on as if the verse never existed. But technically you might never ever be forgiven even for a little slip up. Rape, mass murder, genocide, all absolutely forgiveable. Moment of desperation due perhaps to being a victim of one of these crimes - hell forever.

Ouch.

See above.
 
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Phate999 wrote:
Conditional immortality or Annihilation is the view that hell is not a place. Rather it is an event by which unbelievers will be subjected to a trial, sentenced to be in agony for a comensorate amount of time for their crimes, and will be finally executed in front of all the host of heaven as an example in a fiery display of destruction.
As an example to whom? Won't everyone already have made their choice by then? Or is it just to keep angels who might be sympathetic with Lucifer from following his lead?
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Greg
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slatersteven wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Yes on the ECT model, it would appear that way. That's one of the issues with it.
Quote:
Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Your questions seems to show that I did not explain this well. My bad. What I meant was that on the ECT model, unbelievers continue sinning for eternity in hell. Essentially they get quarantined off in their own section with Satan and never are able to be redeemed.

Quote:
Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?

Paul answered that. Check out the entire chapter of Romans 6.
I thought you were going to explain it?

I am asking your opinion.

Paul asks the reader, "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound even more?" Which is essentially your exact same question.

Here are some of his answers:

--By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

--We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

--So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

--Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

--Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

--For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

--But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

--For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

__________________________________________________________

Essentially Paul is saying look, you are under grace but this does not mean we are to abuse that grace and go on sinning like we all did before believing. You should never think that way. Those things you were doing back then led you to things you are now ashamed of and their end leads to death but Christ has given you the power to respond obediently by making it a practice of doing right, leading to assurance and whose end is eternal life.
 
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Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Yes on the ECT model, it would appear that way. That's one of the issues with it.
Quote:
Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Your questions seems to show that I did not explain this well. My bad. What I meant was that on the ECT model, unbelievers continue sinning for eternity in hell. Essentially they get quarantined off in their own section with Satan and never are able to be redeemed.

Quote:
Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?

Paul answered that. Check out the entire chapter of Romans 6.
I thought you were going to explain it?

I am asking your opinion.

Paul asks the reader, "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound even more?" Which is essentially your exact same question.

Here are some of his answers:

--By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

--We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

--So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

--Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

--Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

--For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

--But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

--For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

__________________________________________________________

Essentially Paul is saying look, you are under grace but this does not mean we are to abuse that grace and go on sinning like we all did before believing. You should never think that way. Those things you were doing back then led you to things you are now ashamed of and their end leads to death but Christ has given you the power to respond obediently by making it a practice of doing right, leading to assurance and whose end is eternal life.
And if we do not it is permanent death?
 
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slatersteven wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
Quote:
1.) The gift for the believers in Jesus is eternal life. On the ECT view, even the wicked receive eternal life so that they can exist forever to be tortured. This makes the reward seem strange and doesn't make as much sense.


Well try spending a day sticking a fork in your bum and see if you think not having a fork in your bum is better. The reward is not being tortured.

Yes on the ECT model, it would appear that way. That's one of the issues with it.
Quote:
Quote:
2.) Sin goes on forever on the ECT model and is never defeated.


So can a believer sin as much as he likes, as long as he believes in Jesus is eternal life.?

Your questions seems to show that I did not explain this well. My bad. What I meant was that on the ECT model, unbelievers continue sinning for eternity in hell. Essentially they get quarantined off in their own section with Satan and never are able to be redeemed.

Quote:
Quote:
3.) Infinite torture does not seem like a just penalty for a few years of sin. Execution seems more commensurate. And mirrors more closely with what Jesus endured for us.


I presume a temporary death followed by resurrection, so why then not sin, your going to get forgiveness in the end?

Paul answered that. Check out the entire chapter of Romans 6.
I thought you were going to explain it?

I am asking your opinion.

Paul asks the reader, "What shall we say then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound even more?" Which is essentially your exact same question.

Here are some of his answers:

--By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

--We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

--So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

--Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions.

--Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.

--For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death.

--But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

--For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

__________________________________________________________

Essentially Paul is saying look, you are under grace but this does not mean we are to abuse that grace and go on sinning like we all did before believing. You should never think that way. Those things you were doing back then led you to things you are now ashamed of and their end leads to death but Christ has given you the power to respond obediently by making it a practice of doing right, leading to assurance and whose end is eternal life.
And if we do not it is permanent death?

Personally I think the bible teaches that all who call on the name of the Lord will be saved, and that those who come to Jesus will never be cast out. At the same time there are hints that some/many people who think they are believers will actually be found out to be frauds and cast out with the unbelievers. This hinges on the doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved verses Conditional Security. Again the bible is not entirely clear here and seems to give indications at times that people who abuse this grace will still be saved and at other times it hints that these people will be judged viciously and shown no mercy. Which all seems to show that it is always better to do what is right and not abuse the gift for fear that you may lose it. But this type of fear is only to be had as a young Christian. Once you get a few years under your belt of following God, he gives you more and more grace and power to overcome any fear and to live with full assurance of your security in him. Not that I am there, especially of my own power, but I do know that I am not easily shaken anymore.
 
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B Schneider
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Phate999 wrote:
von wildensee wrote:

Christians don't agree what hell is? You mean this divinely inspired book is vague and contradictory enough for people that desperatley want to believe in it to disagree on something so important?

Hmmm.

Quite frankly yes. Despite what the masses might think, the bible is not an open and shut case. It's vague on a lot of things and leaves the door open for a lot of different takes.

Quote:


I've brought this up in conversation with coworkers that tried to assure me I will be forgiven if I only take that Leap of Faith and just believe.

To which I told them I am pretty sure I can't be forgiven due to Matthew 12:32

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come" - they didnt quite know what to make of it.

A quite interesting verse, because really I think this Jesus character is the least bad of the three baddies. His message of redemption through scapegoating is quite perverse, but other than that he did have on the whole some quite good stuff to say.

One of the very devout guys I was working with didn't seem to know that verse existed and needed to look it up, then kind of poo-poo'd it away, and the other one, doing his Masters in theology really could not come up with an answer as to how one could even commit this seemingly gravest of grave offenses.

I countered if it wasnt important why would it merit mention? and I am pretty sure when I speak about the ridiculousness of the concept of god(s) I am directly speaking against the "Holy Spirit". So don't bother with me, I am already unforgivable.

There are many theories on what this unpardonable sin is. Most literally it seems to be anyone who speaks a word against the Holy Spirit. From the context, these Jews were claiming that Jesus was casting out demons by the power of Satan. My take on the passage is that it is talking about a person who resists the Holy Spirit internally when the gospel message comes. You see when the message of Jesus is preached, something inside a person is shocked back to life momentarily so as to receive the words and decide to agree to their truth or resist them. This is how God brings the sinner to a point to offer them salvation. If a person resists this only lifeline, they will perish and comment the unpardonable sin. Others think that this sin is unbelief. Since belief in Jesus grants you forgiveness, this is the only sin that is unpardonable. That makes sense too.

Quote:

Is the OP sure, even in a moment of doubt, that he never committed this unpardonable sin?

Yes, I am sure, or else I wouldn't be a believer.


Quote:
Also, do you have an idea of how this sin is committed? I found it interesting that some Christians that I felt were extremely knowledgeable completely glossed over this most important little easter egg in Matthew...

Or like my coworkers, would you be more inclined to poopoo it away and carry on as if the verse never existed. But technically you might never ever be forgiven even for a little slip up. Rape, mass murder, genocide, all absolutely forgiveable. Moment of desperation due perhaps to being a victim of one of these crimes - hell forever.

Ouch.

See above.


But you do not know. Something you seem to harp on about WRT science. Hardly a divinely inspired text. Could be you've done the unpardonable and have no idea. Bafflegab. However, in this bafflegab, I would not attempt to say your lack of certitude proves the existence of Vishnu. It just means nobody seems to be really sure what the hell this unpardonable sin really is.

Therefore I would add this to the mountain of evidence that this is a book created by fallible humans and that it is self contradictory in many places, because it mashes together many different traditions and sources. William Lane Craig makes a career in trying to smooth out the edges.

This is precisely what leads to "buffet" Christianity, everyone can read what they want, justify omitting what doesnt already suit their needs, and feel self fulfilled that they are "Christians".

At least the Quran introduces the concept of abrogation in an attempt to logically address any inconsistencies. In the bible you are simply left guessing at the "context".

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Mac Mcleod
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Doc Mage wrote:
Life is objectively better when you realize that sin and hell are fictions.


But it's important that the concepts exist, otherwise we wouldn't get hilariously funny and inventive graphic novels like "Lucifer". Sadly the TV show isn't following the graphic novel.

OTH, "Preacher" is following it pretty closely and it's a rough road. But so was the comic while Lucifer was a seductive delight of a proud highly intelligent character overcoming the environment imposed on him.
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Talking to True Believers is the same everywhere:






Pretty much any conversation:

Atheist: there is no evidence that there is a God, therefore I don't believe.

Believer: but The Book says there is! PROVE there is NO god! Atheists say there is no god. You must prove this!

Atheist: Scientific advances seem to directly contradict many teachings of the bible with each new discovery.

Believer: What? Scientists always change their minds, they don't know and can't explain anything with certainty! You can't trust science! The bible gives the answers!(Was actually said to me).

Atheist: Jawdrop. Facepalm. Alright, let's just agree to disagree.

I am sure in countries where Believers wont put you to death, this same conversation goes on and on and on.

Edit: note in the video the lady in the head covering states she still believes in the existence of a god, I wonder if that is because of the earthly repercussions of stating outright non-belief in God?
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Matthew Schoell
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von wildensee wrote:
Talking to True Believers is the same everywhere:






Pretty much any conversation:

Atheist: there is no evidence that there is a God, therefore I don't believe.

Believer: but The Book says there is! PROVE there is NO god! Atheists say there is no god. You must prove this!

Atheist: Scientific advances seem to directly contradict many teachings of the bible with each new discovery.

Believer: What? Scientists always change their minds, they don't know and can't explain anything with certainty! You can't trust science! The bible gives the answers!(Was actually said to me).

Atheist: Jawdrop. Facepalm. Alright, let's just agree to disagree.

I am sure in countries where Believers wont put you to death, this same conversation goes on and on and on.

Edit: note in the video the lady in the head covering states she still believes in the existence of a god, I wonder if that is because of the earthly repercussions of stating outright non-belief in God?


I disagree. I have had conversations with true believers that ended in respectful disagreement. No convincing happened but we both recognized the common ground between us and the thoughtful consideration we put into the topic.

Where your description becomes apt is when one side brings an outside agenda of conflict and/or conversion. Such as our OP who revealed to us all that he perceives atheism as the thing he's up against. It doesn't have to be the believer with that agenda either.

It's the problem of US evangelicals. You can't respect someone fully if you are evangelizing them. You're not really there to communicate with them, you're there to win, to advance your cause, to identify the other and diminish it. It's not really at all about the person being evangelized too.

About the only irrefutable point regarding religion and belief is that there isn't irrefutable evidence for any position. It's not a good starting point for anyone to have a strident opinion, not that that matters at all.
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With regard to the strident position, are you one of those types that try to be polite and posit the position of "maybe belief"?

Belief is a zero sum game IMO - if you are not sure then you don't believe.

I get the middle way is a great way to lull the other side into thinking they may actually convince you of something so they won't put their hackles up. I just find it disingenuous.

I always attempt to be polite with coworkers/friends when it comes up but still stick to the fact that I am an Atheist. This usually blows their minds and elicits a "How can you be so certain?" response (most actual atheists in my experience will state they are "agnostic" to avoid confrontation). At any rate Atheism is kind of a silly way to have to self identify, nobody calls me an a-St.Nicholast, or a-Trollist, but those terms would work.

I think the term sceptic is more applicable. One is a theist or one is not.

Not meant to be accusatory, just something I've oft thought about.
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Matthew Schoell
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von wildensee wrote:

With regard to the strident position, are you one of those types that try to be polite and posit the position of "maybe belief"?



My position is that every day without religious beliefs of others somehow interfering with my life is a better day then one with it.

I don't care to bother with any of it. Nothing really advances theological thought, it just reveals what the humans talking about it want. I'm atheist, I suppose, but primarily I'm just areligious. I'd prefer to spend no more time on it than I do on cockatrice-proofing my garage to avoid petrification.

People keep bringing it up though, and I can accept that it's meaningful to them, but I wish they would prioritize how they treat other people over their specific favorite flavor of belief in something they'll never be able to prove.
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Phate999 wrote:
Quite frankly yes. Despite what the masses might think, the bible is not an open and shut case. It's vague on a lot of things and leaves the door open for a lot of different takes.


Given the stakes involved, don't you see how this is a problem?
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