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Subject: Nerfin or banning the vespertine bow rss

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Lyle Chipperson
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So I just finished a regular campaign with the flower knight added, I have to say the vespertine bow and the sleeping virus flower made everything really easy, been thinkin of removing them from my next play through, Will still hunt the flower knight cause the showdown is awesome and it's resources with the satchel is really useful.

Anyone else felt the bow is "broken"? Any of you banned it from ur game or changed it numbers?
 
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Kain
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No less broken than a monster getting a critical through your armour and decapitating your survivor. Or rolling a one on an event and having everyone and their equipment vanish forever.
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Death Jester
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Necrotoxic Mistletoe can be rough if your settlement is ill prepared or playing blind.

Also our archer characters usually are support so wear no armour and spend all their precious gear slots on instruments, bandages, potions and different specialised arrows. So although lethal, they occasionally get their limbs ripped off without protection.

But I also believe once we've finished a campaign to completion (9 failures or quit outs)that we will finish it differently, different armour sets and different weapons and principles.

Have fun
 
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Nick Wirtz
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I don't think it's broken, but I think it's a bit too easy to get (esp. if you stack up multiple mistletoe events). But, not all gear is made equal.

If I were to modify it, it would definitely be weakening it rather than removing it, because a non-cumbersome bow is a nice option to have.

Remember, it doesn't interact with Frenzy, in case that's what's been making it too easy.


 
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Death Jester
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spiralingcadaver wrote:


Remember, it doesn't interact with Frenzy, in case that's what's been making it too easy.




What do you mean by this, Nick?
 
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DeathJester23 wrote:
spiralingcadaver wrote:


Remember, it doesn't interact with Frenzy, in case that's what's been making it too easy.




What do you mean by this, Nick?


I think he means that if you chose to activate the option making the bow "Slow" frenzy would not remove the slow, since that part of frenzy only effects melee weapons.
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IA Seldon
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The power of this bow is pretty OP considering the year you can actually make it. Nor does it help that it's really easy to craft. One run with the Flower Knight can net you the bow.

However, the power of the bow does even out later on. Sorta. Kinda.

...unless your bow master is rocking +4 Str. Then it's goddamned ridiculous.


But that kind of power curve is probably necessary. Hold up! Lemme explain. All of the expansions were pretty much designed and tested at the same time in the game's dev cycle. That includes monsters like a Level 3 DBK and the Lion God in all incarnations, as well as the earliest stages of the Lantern Festival.

Right now we're seeing a power level that overmatches the current game monsters because the short campaign length means that rarely (if ever) does a group want to seriously risk a TPK on a level 3 monster and lose any resources if at all possible, because thos resources are critical for end game.

But with Lantern Festival? There is more time, and the need for larger collections of resources will likely start factoring in around LY 12-17 if we hope to stay relevant with the bigger creatures coming up.

Viewed like that, where Level 3 hunts become necessary to gather the resources, the bow's power drops down to being similar to the Cat Bow in the first few years.

Honestly I will not be suprised if LF bows lose cumbersome altogether when it drops. The inability to move and shoot really imposes a big limitation once you start higher-difficulty fights, and not having that move/shoot action group might mean the difference between life and death beyond LY25.

Summing up: the Vespertine Bow looks like it might be a way to advance the campaign into Level 3 monsters before moving into LY25+ territory, and will most likely be quickly replaced in gear selection very early into the Lantern Festival monsters.
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Lyle Chipperson
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That's a really good point u brought up !
Like the dbk level 3, and the lion god , maybe the bow is made with the expansions on sight , in the last campaign of it weren't for the bow hunting a level 3 flower knight and lion would has been really difficult, i think you are onto something.

 
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Drake Coker
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IASeldon wrote:
The power of this bow is pretty OP considering the year you can actually make it. Nor does it help that it's really easy to craft. One run with the Flower Knight can net you the bow.

However, the power of the bow does even out later on. Sorta. Kinda.

...unless your bow master is rocking +4 Str. Then it's goddamned ridiculous.


But that kind of power curve is probably necessary. Hold up! Lemme explain. All of the expansions were pretty much designed and tested at the same time in the game's dev cycle. That includes monsters like a Level 3 DBK and the Lion God in all incarnations, as well as the earliest stages of the Lantern Festival.

Right now we're seeing a power level that overmatches the current game monsters because the short campaign length means that rarely (if ever) does a group want to seriously risk a TPK on a level 3 monster and lose any resources if at all possible, because thos resources are critical for end game.

But with Lantern Festival? There is more time, and the need for larger collections of resources will likely start factoring in around LY 12-17 if we hope to stay relevant with the bigger creatures coming up.

Viewed like that, where Level 3 hunts become necessary to gather the resources, the bow's power drops down to being similar to the Cat Bow in the first few years.

Honestly I will not be suprised if LF bows lose cumbersome altogether when it drops. The inability to move and shoot really imposes a big limitation once you start higher-difficulty fights, and not having that move/shoot action group might mean the difference between life and death beyond LY25.

Summing up: the Vespertine Bow looks like it might be a way to advance the campaign into Level 3 monsters before moving into LY25+ territory, and will most likely be quickly replaced in gear selection very early into the Lantern Festival monsters.


Except, I think we know the Lantern Festival is changing into something other than being campaign extension(?)
 
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Nick Wirtz
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Yeah, the LF is pretty up-in-the-air. Unclear if it's going to be its own campaign, an extension like the original, some new replacement options, or some combination. I'm expecting something along the lines of the sunstalker/dragon, closer to the dragon since we already know there are multiple enemies getting added.
 
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Steve Trewartha
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It would be pretty hard to design the Lantern Festival and I am really curious to see what it yields... On one hand, some people are starting to beat the game easily and fight the toughest monsters so would seek a much greater challenge beyond LY25, on the other hand probably the majority of users are still only fighting level 1-2s and haven't got a lot of the current advanced stuff. How do you make it accessible to both parties?

 
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IA Seldon
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strewart wrote:
It would be pretty hard to design the Lantern Festival and I am really curious to see what it yields... On one hand, some people are starting to beat the game easily and fight the toughest monsters so would seek a much greater challenge beyond LY25, on the other hand probably the majority of users are still only fighting level 1-2s and haven't got a lot of the current advanced stuff. How do you make it accessible to both parties?



Gear restrictions is my first thought. Require level 3 resource legendary items to unlock the super-good stuff right away. There will most likely be a series of Nemesis walls as there is in the core set. You know, "Must be this Badass to live as a shambling wreck of a man" dealies.

Alternatively, you could gear out four "Starting" survivors who reach one of he Great Game Hunter cities and join a community of like-minded survivors. These survivors could come with a selectable number of resource cards which are then used to begin branching up into the new gear categories.

There ar likely a dozen other start scenarios available, depending on various factors, and I bet we'll see one or two different start scenarios depending on if you're continuing from a core game or if you just want to jump in head-first.
 
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Steve Trewartha
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IASeldon wrote:
strewart wrote:
It would be pretty hard to design the Lantern Festival and I am really curious to see what it yields... On one hand, some people are starting to beat the game easily and fight the toughest monsters so would seek a much greater challenge beyond LY25, on the other hand probably the majority of users are still only fighting level 1-2s and haven't got a lot of the current advanced stuff. How do you make it accessible to both parties?



Gear restrictions is my first thought. Require level 3 resource legendary items to unlock the super-good stuff right away. There will most likely be a series of Nemesis walls as there is in the core set. You know, "Must be this Badass to live as a shambling wreck of a man" dealies.

Alternatively, you could gear out four "Starting" survivors who reach one of he Great Game Hunter cities and join a community of like-minded survivors. These survivors could come with a selectable number of resource cards which are then used to begin branching up into the new gear categories.

There ar likely a dozen other start scenarios available, depending on various factors, and I bet we'll see one or two different start scenarios depending on if you're continuing from a core game or if you just want to jump in head-first.


One of his gencon interviews did mention an 'invaders' expansion which started by 4 equipped survivors fighting against another settlement's veteran survivors to take control, and effectively start around LY10-15. That sounded really cool to me, but I didn't consider that something like that could be in the Lantern Festival. That would be great!
 
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Lyle Chipperson
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Thanks for clearing things up more ! I just have a question , why is the acanthus doctor broken ?
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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There is a build picture somewhere in this forum that shows you why. TL;DR: the green affinities, oh God the green affinities: it is a 7-8 evasion guy that hits like there's no tomorrow.
 
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Lyle Chipperson
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Another thing that needs to be banned!


I thin I remember seein that build it was pretty powerful, looks like the items on the flower knight expansion really makes the game easier
 
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Drew Olds
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Remember that the flower knight does not have an armor set. So there's a big gap in what you can get from him.

His weapons are super good (they're all meant to be trade-offs for bad stuff that happens later).
 
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