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BattleCON: Devastation of Indines» Forums » General

Subject: Tier list and matchup chart rss

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jitjit2x junior
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I have been reading on game balance by David Sirlin, the designer of yomi. He points out that in balancing fighting games, making a tier list and matchup chart is very helpful. In making a tier list and mu chart, it is better to just ask the experts and make a consensus instead of relying on results base on a number of games outcomes (which, for some games, may not have been played by experts).

So, I'm calling out to battlecon experts marco, sascha,and david talton to make a preliminary tier list and match up chart and others can comment afterwards.

P.s. I'm sorry if this has been done before. I only remember the one with the excel sheet of game results
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Tiran Kin
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jitjit2x wrote:
I have been reading on game balance by David Sirlin, the designer of yomi. He points out that in balancing fighting games, making a tier list and matchup chart is very helpful. In making a tier list and mu chart, it is better to just ask the experts and make a consensus instead of relying on results base on a number of games outcomes (which, for some games, may not have been played by experts).

So, I'm calling out to battlecon experts marco, sascha,and david talton to make a preliminary tier list and match up chart and others can comment afterwards.

P.s. I'm sorry if this has been done before. I only remember the one with the excel sheet of game results



The meta's pretty complicated and not wholly-understood even by Marco, Bard, or Sascha, but note the following:

Arec and Ottavia are overpowered to the point that they're banned in official tournaments.

Voco is considered significantly underpowered.

Kaitlyn has such dramatically favored/unfavored matchups that although she's not considered imbalanced overall, she's banned in official tournaments.


I realize you're not asking for a chart based on reported matches—however, since that's a project that's also ongoing, please submit any matches you play to: http://bit.ly/BCForm

The results of that data can be found here: http://bit.ly/BCStats
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Steven Jakeman
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ayeeeee! Not the meta!
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Submit matches to http://bit.ly/BCForm . Include names. Even pseudonyms or initials are fine (e.g. jitjitx-AB if it's a local opponent of yours). ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE DATUMS
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Igor Kaplounenko
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tirankin wrote:

Arec and Ottavia are overpowered to the point that they're banned in official tournaments.


Out of curiosity, is there an FAQ for this somewhere? I'm a newcomer to Battlecon, and while I'm really enjoying it so far -- despite my usual dry euro leanings -- I've only played it with a couple of people one of whom is my mom.
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Tournament guidelines ban those two, and it is simply Known among the community that they are overpowered. Playing a match against either might not seem too daunting until you have an opponent who knows your character.

The other two bans are Kaitlyn, for swinginess reasons, and Endrbyt, for combinatorial reasons.

You can find this information in the tournament guides on the level 99 site. I think they're in the Downloads section?
 
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Thiago Colas
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megawidget wrote:
tirankin wrote:

Arec and Ottavia are overpowered to the point that they're banned in official tournaments.


Out of curiosity, is there an FAQ for this somewhere? I'm a newcomer to Battlecon, and while I'm really enjoying it so far -- despite my usual dry euro leanings -- I've only played it with a couple of people one of whom is my mom.


The tournament guides are here: http://lvl99games.com/downloads/tournament-documents/file/ba...
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Igor Kaplounenko
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dinobottm2 wrote:


Thanks! Presumably once I whet my chops this will become useful.
 
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jitjit2x junior
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tirankin wrote:


The meta's pretty complicated and not wholly-understood even by Marco, Bard, or Sascha, but note the following:

Arec and Ottavia are overpowered to the point that they're banned in official tournaments.

Voco is considered significantly underpowered.

Kaitlyn has such dramatically favored/unfavored matchups that although she's not considered imbalanced overall, she's banned in official tournaments.


I realize you're not asking for a chart based on reported matches—however, since that's a project that's also ongoing, please submit any matches you play to: http://bit.ly/BCForm

The results of that data can be found here: http://bit.ly/BCStats


This is a start. According to david sirlin, the first to do is nerf those who are S tier or God tier and buff those who are on F tier. Marco, Sascha, and Bard are experts nonetheless, so their opinion matter. Two experts can already give a match up value after only having 1 or 2 games; instead of collecting data out of 1000 games. But even collecting these 1000 games, we can't be sure that these are played well or are played by experts. By depending on expert analysis, This would save us a lot of time.
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Quote:
According to david sirlin, the first to do is nerf those who are S tier or God tier and buff those who are on F tier.

David Sirlin is a true innovator of our times.
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Marco Santos
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I mean, I don't think I'm the best BattleCON player. I can definitely disseminate information about strategies very well, but that makes me a good commentator/strategist. Not exactly a best player.

Regardless, even if I am an expert, I'm only really good at my mains. I play other characters in a mediocre manner. So, even if I played some MU's against Sascha/Brad, I don't think it would exactly be indicative of the character strength.

For example, if you told me to play Byron a few, he'd be considered absolute trash tier because my Byron's garbage.

Not to say that I wouldn't be open to this, but the 3 people you mention are quite busy, so maybe this might take a while.

I can, of course, just give "MU impressions" based off what I know about characters. Mally VS Clive should be for Mally (but not anymore because Force Gauge), but actually playing all 60 x 59 match-ups? I don't know if any of us have the time.
 
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jitjit2x junior
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Hey marco, thanks for the reply. Because of the many characters, especially with the upcoming Trials of Indines, we could start at some match ups that you are highly confident with your impressions. You could put some values on it. Like Arec vs Ryukyuk is @ 9-1 and Hepzibah vs Eligor @ 8-2. After others agrees with your score (after adjustments, if any) then we can have a consensus on some of the character match ups.

At this point of the game, we are looking for S tier characters and F tier characters first. For they are the ones who have very skewed match ups, like Arec going to beat everybody else and Voco going to be beaten by everybody else. These characters can ruin the game, especially on tournament settings as everybody will be racing to pick Kaitlyn or Endrbyt or Arec. And no one will pick Voco or Cadenza.

I'm not a fan of the current tournament rules, where you can only pick from a handful of characters in a season. I think they are an excuse for banning unbalance characters without actually banning them
 
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Aaron Brosman
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jitjit2x wrote:

I'm not a fan of the current tournament rules, where you can only pick from a handful of characters in a season. I think they are an excuse for banning unbalance characters without actually banning them


Actually I think it's a fairly ingenious way to limit the character pool so that new players don't need to memorize all of the characters from the entire game. That's a huge entry burden.

Also, there are 3 different tournament structures and only one of the them uses the limited character list. So, there is a lot going on there.

Now I'm not saying that you couldn't use a limited list like this to address imbalance without changing characters, but I certainly don't think that's the main reason. I could be wrong though.
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Thiago Colas
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jitjit2x wrote:
I'm not a fan of the current tournament rules, where you can only pick from a handful of characters in a season. I think they are an excuse for banning unbalance characters without actually banning them


Except the unbalanced characters ARE banned. There is a ban list, so far composed of 4 characters: Ottavia, Arec, Endrbyt and Kaitlyn. Of which, only one is not banned for power issues (Endr, banned for time problems, Kaitlyn has power issues, but VERY matchup dependent, but still is).
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jitjit2x junior
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Hey Thiago. You're an expert on battlecon too. Aside from the 4 characters that are banned, any other characters that are unbalanced?
 
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Thiago Colas
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jitjit2x wrote:
Hey Thiago. You're an expert on battlecon too. Aside from the 4 characters that are banned, any other characters that are unbalanced?


I wouldn't call myself an expert, I just have a good eye for potential broken chars. The only other one I predict will enter this list really soon is Welsie, with Burman as a close possibility.
 
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Daniel Honig
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Note that there are currently no plans to expand the ban list - the current 4 bans are the only characters with significant power/matchup issues to warp the metagame. The closest characters to being added are those that benefit a lot from Force Gauge, which is...Clive, mostly?
 
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dinobottm2 wrote:
jitjit2x wrote:
Hey Thiago. You're an expert on battlecon too. Aside from the 4 characters that are banned, any other characters that are unbalanced?


I wouldn't call myself an expert, I just have a good eye for potential broken chars. The only other one I predict will enter this list really soon is Welsie, with Burman as a close possibility.
Burman, really? I must clearly misunderstand him because I played him exactly once and then decided I hated his playstyle.
 
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Daniel Honig
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One of his finishers is too strong, but that's about it. His mixup took a nerf with the changes to Dodge, so he's probably fine after all is said and done. He is strong, though, and can wreck people that get stuck at his preferred ranges or get caught by a beat-winning guess.
 
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Marco Santos
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jitjit2x wrote:
Hey marco, thanks for the reply. Because of the many characters, especially with the upcoming Trials of Indines, we could start at some match ups that you are highly confident with your impressions. You could put some values on it. Like Arec vs Ryukyuk is @ 9-1 and Hepzibah vs Eligor @ 8-2. After others agrees with your score (after adjustments, if any) then we can have a consensus on some of the character match ups.

At this point of the game, we are looking for S tier characters and F tier characters first. For they are the ones who have very skewed match ups, like Arec going to beat everybody else and Voco going to be beaten by everybody else. These characters can ruin the game, especially on tournament settings as everybody will be racing to pick Kaitlyn or Endrbyt or Arec. And no one will pick Voco or Cadenza.

I'm not a fan of the current tournament rules, where you can only pick from a handful of characters in a season. I think they are an excuse for banning unbalance characters without actually banning them


Maybe this would be useful, but I have gone on record saying that I don't really think this approach is the best way (and I heavily prefer just feeding the data to the database).

Also, note that Worlds format doesn't even use the limited pool. I think it was just "pick 3 outside of Arec/Endrbyt/Kaitlyn/Ottavia."

Andarel wrote:
Note that there are currently no plans to expand the ban list - the current 4 bans are the only characters with significant power/matchup issues to warp the metagame. The closest characters to being added are those that benefit a lot from Force Gauge, which is...Clive, mostly?


I second this. If it's anyone, it's Clive.
 
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jitjit2x junior
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This is just my suggestion. Instead of waiting the results of 1000 games for a given matchup, 1 or 2 games played by experts is enough to assess if a given matchup is unbalanced or not
 
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Paul Johnson
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Interesting, I never really thought of Clive when considering the Force Gauge. Does he really benefit from it that much?
 
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Khift wrote:
Interesting, I never really thought of Clive when considering the Force Gauge. Does he really benefit from it that much?


I bet being able to add Stun Guard 2 as needed would cover the hole in his "don't stun me" rotation. Especially if he sets his SG1 module early. (I haven't played with Force Gauge, though.)
 
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Daniel Honig
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Yup, that plus the cancel on hit/on damage means he's really good against stun effects/power boosts from those.
 
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