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High Frontier (3rd edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Ripped off? What to buy? rss

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Karsten Engelmann
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So,

It appears I got ripped off kicksarting the Third Edition. This makes my kickstarter experience at about two good products, two marginal, and four stole my money.


The problem is I am interested in the topic. So,cwhat should I get that actually physically exists, and is not just a credit card scam? Suggestions?

Thanks!

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Will H.
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Based on the current 3rd Ed. Kickstarter campaign, High Frontier 2nd Ed. is probably your best bet if you want to play High Frontier before 2018. Unfortunately, it will probably cost you a considerable amount of money on the secondary market.

If you're just looking for a great space game, I'd recommend Leaving Earth in the meantime...
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Christopher
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I recommend not backing your choice on kickstarter. You seem to be have bad luck. Consider Leaving Earth or Liftoff, but nothing compares to High Frontier. Also, patience is essential to success in HF. Now is a good time to practice.
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Mark Gilbertson
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phileklund wrote:
TedW wrote:
Anybody know what this means:
phileklund wrote:
I sent all HF3 files to OSS except for the rules illustrations, and I should be able to get those done in a couple of weeks.


Does this mean OSS is waiting on something from Phil?





No, back when it was hoped to have an Oct. 2015 release I supplied (in 2014) rules and play a long list of illustrations I felt were necessary to illustrate the rules. I described each of I think 50 illustrations in some detail, but OSS was to have an artist execute them using whatever components OSS finally decided upon. As late as the summer of 2015 I submitted corrections to my submission provided by playtesters. Unfortunately Jon Compton never shared with me the work on rules or illustrations so I have no idea what the product will look like. Nor did they ask questions, so I assume my submission was clear.

Thank you all for your letters of support. I expect Ares Magazine/OSS to publish within the year, and that it will be a spectacular game. My team of mostly unsung (and unpaid) amateur enthusiasts and nerds have literally poured man-years getting the details and balance right. OSS brings experience in KS and quality components, and Ares brings a sci-fi background. OSS has agreed to sell me 800 games when finished, and I intend to make these available for preorder on my website next month (Oct). In the small chance that OSS never delivers, I will provide instead a 4th edition product made by SMG.

I consider the risk of me footing the bill for providing games to all the KS people to be small, but I am prepared to do so to keep the customers happy.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phil,

I have personal experience of your integrity, you are a man of honor and a man of your word (you 'personally' helped me to get some pre-ordered "Pax stuff" last November in time for Christmas gift giving, (i.e. Pax games/boards that had somehow gotten lost in the post between Germany and Minnesota). My game collection and gaming life would not be the same without your contributions to them, so here's a sincere and heart-felt Thanks Phil, for all you've done to help make the world a better place for your fellow gamers!
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Robert Fox
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The designer has already said 3rd edition will be produced within a year, and if not he'll self-produce.

So you haven't been ripped off, just lied to by an incompetent company that doesn't know how to manage deadlines (or much of anything it appears).

The best best, though, is to forget Kickstarter. It's not a preorder system. It's crowdfunding business ventures, and as such, involves risk of losing your investment. It's even worse than normal investing as the investors all carry most of the risk, are diffused among a group so have even less power to carry legal action against being wronged, and doesn't get to share in the profit if it succeeds. The very structure itself is a scam, and is best avoided.
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Barry Miller
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I highly recommend, Leaving Earth! If you don't get High Frontier (or even if you do), Leaving Earth should be in your collection if you have any interest in the subject.


On a side note, I'll offer my Kickstarter experience as another data point:

I've backed 78 games on Kickstarter:
- Of the 56 games that I've received, I've been very satisfied with 53 of them (95%).
- Three have been somewhat of a disappointment but I keep them anyway as they fill a niche.
- I did not receive one funded project (a $12 deck of cards) as it turned out to be a scam.
- The shortest project was in my hands 6 weeks after pledging. The longest project took 24 months. Most project deliveries fall around 10-14 months, which is fine with me as I have an 18 month backlog of games I haven't played yet!
- Of the 15 games I'm currently waiting on, 12 are on schedule and the project manager is great at communicating. Three are falling behind schedule, but the reasons are known. It'd be nice to get a little more communication from those creators, but it's not close to the point yet where a loss of confidence is warranted.
- The final 6 games (if you've been doing your math) were never funded.

So how does my track record compare? If my positive track record is a basis of any sort of advice, it is this: Do NOT impulse buy on Kickstarter!
Also:
- I do my homework on every project I back. (Unless it's an expansion to a game, or if I already trust the creator).
- I WAIT till late in the campaign before funding most projects. That way, more information is available to make a more informed decision.
- I mostly back games that fill niche spots on my shelf. By going afte niche games, I can be reasonably sure that the creator isn't simply out to capitalize on the latest craze theme and make a quick buck. I've never been dissatisfied with any of my "niche" games from Kickstarter! This segues into...
- Finally, I stay away from games that come across as being themed/published only to make a quick buck, or because Freddy Jones next door wants to try making a popular game.

For instance, if I get wind of a zombie game on Kickstarter, I RUN! Run away. There's been a hundred zombie games on KS, and they all can't be good. So don't waste your time and money looking at even one. Also, games set on Mars, or with a Mars theme seem to be all the rage now, so watch out for the hundred Mars-themed games that will be sure to hit Kickstarter in the coming year. Here's some advice now: RUN! Don't even look at them! Some may be good, but they all can't be. So be safe and don't bother.

Of course there are always the exceptions. There are some great zombie games and some great Martian games that have been/are Kickstarter projects. But the difference between these great games and the chaff that I talk about above, is mostly distinguished by intuition... intuition honed by publisher reputation/pre-announcements/trusted videos/buzz, etc.

Those are my tips for Kickstarter satisfaction. FWIW!

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Phil Eklund
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karstenengelmann wrote:
So,

It appears I got ripped off kicksarting the Third Edition. This makes my kickstarter experience at about two good products, two marginal, and four stole my money.


The problem is I am interested in the topic. So,cwhat should I get that actually physically exists, and is not just a credit card scam? Suggestions?

Thanks!


If the KS publisher (OSS) who has taken the money for High Frontier 3 does not produce it by October 2017, I will cancel the contract and self-produce High Frontier 4 and donate copies to those who have not received the High Frontier 3 game from OSS.
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Paweł Bedz
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phileklund wrote:
If the KS publisher (OSS) who has taken the money for High Frontier 3 does not produce it by October 2017, I will cancel the contract and self-produce High Frontier 4 and donate copies to those who have not received the High Frontier 3 game from OSS.

Phil, you are awesome, as always
But i am not sure if stating this public is a good idea... Now OSS/AM can feel "safe" from all backers, since they will receive games from You...

High Frontier looks like "bunny" i am chasing in board games for years... Of course it can't be so easy... OSS had to step in and deny me (hopefully just delay) my bunny!
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Karsten Engelmann
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Phil,

I brlieve you will...i am worried about your 'partner' companies. When i was young a producing games i ran into something like this and it sunk my company (that and working full time plus graduate school plus family was toooooo much).

I just want a freaking space game.

And i came looking at High Frontier after my wifecand I played 'Evolution' which is nothing compared to American Megafauna (even though those rules are confusing at points).

So second edition it is for now...what expansions go with the second ecition?

Thanks!
Karsten

phileklund wrote:
karstenengelmann wrote:
So,

It appears I got ripped off kicksarting the Third Edition. This makes my kickstarter experience at about two good products, two marginal, and four stole my money.


The problem is I am interested in the topic. So,cwhat should I get that actually physically exists, and is not just a credit card scam? Suggestions?

Thanks!


If the KS publisher (OSS) who has taken the money for High Frontier 3 does not produce it by October 2017, I will cancel the contract and self-produce High Frontier 4 and donate copies to those who have not received the High Frontier 3 game from OSS.
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Will H.
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Colonization.

There is even one on Amazon for less than $50!

The base game and Colonization will keep you busy until 3rd Ed. comes out.
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Derek Long
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FuManchu wrote:
...

The best best, though, is to forget Kickstarter. It's not a preorder system. It's crowdfunding business ventures, and as such, involves risk of losing your investment. It's even worse than normal investing as the investors all carry most of the risk, are diffused among a group so have even less power to carry legal action against being wronged, and doesn't get to share in the profit if it succeeds. The very structure itself is a scam, and is best avoided.


To refer to this as a "scam" is provocative language. I think it is more reasonable to say that people should recognise that, as you say, this is not a preorder, but is a support for production. It is a risk, of course. But investors see some return in the stretch goals, where they exist. And the other significant return is that investors see a chance to support publication of a product that might otherwise never be produced.
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Jesse Moore
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gar0u wrote:
Colonization.

There is even one on Amazon for less than $50!


Phil still has copies for 10 Euros, - VAT + Shipping = ~16 Euros, on the Sierra Madre Games website.
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Robert Fox
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Derek Long wrote:
FuManchu wrote:
...

The best best, though, is to forget Kickstarter. It's not a preorder system. It's crowdfunding business ventures, and as such, involves risk of losing your investment. It's even worse than normal investing as the investors all carry most of the risk, are diffused among a group so have even less power to carry legal action against being wronged, and doesn't get to share in the profit if it succeeds. The very structure itself is a scam, and is best avoided.


To refer to this as a "scam" is provocative language. I think it is more reasonable to say that people should recognise that, as you say, this is not a preorder, but is a support for production. It is a risk, of course. But investors see some return in the stretch goals, where they exist. And the other significant return is that investors see a chance to support publication of a product that might otherwise never be produced.


The reason I used scam is that it reverses who assumes the risk of producing a product. The consumer is basically assuming the majority of the financial risk (although it is diffused among many small investments), and has little to no recourse if the product goes south.

I've Kickstarted two things. The first never happened (not Up Front) and was out the "investment" money, the second is this one.

Unless the Kickstarter structure is changed to provide more protection for the investor, I'll never touch that site again.
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thierry serre
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Thank for this message Mr Eklund, i believe you. Truly yours
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