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Kingdom Death: Monster» Forums » Rules

Subject: Special Showdown Question -- Some Minor Expansion Spoilers rss

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Nathan Ehlers
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This came up in a game this weekend and I wasn't 100% sure about how it should work. We started the Manhunter storyline which triggers a special showdown in the middle of the "update timeline" phase where you're triggering story events. Essentially you're fighting the Manhunter in the middle of your settlement.

Do you go through a "departing survivors" step? There's some subtle rules questions here. Particularly:

1. Who is eligible to fight in this special showdown?
2. Can you fight if you can't hunt next year (or are retired?)?
3. Can you fight if you have flower addiction?
4. Do various "departing survivors" effects trigger? (i.e. gaining survival, stat bonuses, ect from innovations and gear)

My ruling, which is a conglomeration of rules as I read them and the thematic setting of the particular event, is that anyone in the camp physically capable of fighting could (i.e. you could fight if you are afraid of the dark, but not if you're completely blind). Flower Addiction would have prevented you from fighting. There is a departing survivors step so that the group can pick and gear up their party, gaining all the appropriate stat bumps (and in our case, penalties due to Heat Wave being in effect).

It is clear that special showdowns take place immediately and do not allow for any development actions, as they happen during resolving timeline stories and you immediately return to that same place in the game after resolving the showdown.

What do you all think?
 
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Thomas Patrick
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I don't have the rule book in front of me, but I think it defines a special showdown in the front of it.

No "depart" for the survivors. Since it's in the middle of the settlement phase, before gear grids can be messed with, the returning survivors from the last showdown along with their same gear grids are who fights the Manhunter.

You get rid of flower addiction when you depart to hunt the Flower Knight, so you couldn't be one of the returning survivors from the previous hunt and still have that, so no.

When the fight is done, you return to the settlement phase where you left off. You do not gain additional endeavors.
 
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TechRaptor Travis
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The survivors do depart.

It's treated like a Nemesis encounter and reads "Departing survivors do not have a Hunt Phase. Instead, select the Manhunter's monster level based on the current lantern year and set up the showdown accordingly. Unless directed to by the timeline, the Manhunter may not be chosen for a Nemesis Encounter."

Emphasis mine.

Therefore, we play through it like any other 'depart'.

Anyone prevented from departing would be prevented here. I agree about the flower addiction preventing a survivor from fighting the Manhunter though.
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David Tolin
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NerdyRaptor wrote:
The survivors do depart.

It's treated like a Nemesis encounter and reads "Departing survivors do not have a Hunt Phase. Instead, select the Manhunter's monster level based on the current lantern year and set up the showdown accordingly. Unless directed to by the timeline, the Manhunter may not be chosen for a Nemesis Encounter."


This is good, because otherwise how would you handle a TPK in the previous hunt?
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Nathan Ehlers
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I've seen the argument about not going through any departing stuff and it just doesn't make any sense. Not only does it break the game if there's a TPK, but it would mean that you don't actually activate and add armor values (which can make some fights near impossible and also kind of breaks teh game). I can't believe that a monster pops up in the middle of town and the 20-some survivors milling around wouldn't do anything about it because the four people sent out to hunt some meat didn't come back. So even if the rules are explicit about it, I have to assume that you can pick four people to fight the threat. That decision leads me to also assume they can grab some armor and swords before running at the creature. I'm just not sure about the fineries of the special showdown situation.

The way it's defined in the rulebook and clarified in the expansion rules doesn't actually clarify the question of departing. It just makes it clear that it's happening in the middle of resolving timeline stuff and when you're done, you return to the timeline section. Seems like a situation that could have been easily fixed with a sentence that specifies how you get from the settlement phase to the start of the showdown phase.

The situation that came up this weekend involved someone coming back from the hunt, having just earned flower addiction. My reading is that they wouldn't shed it until they go hunt the flower knight again even if they had just been fighting the flower knight since the wording is about departing to fight the FK.
 
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Adam T
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Just further evidence towards the survivors getting a departing phase, I believe the timeline event that reveals the manhunter has you nominate a survivor to lead the survivors into battle against him. What would happen if you nominated a survivor who wasn't a returning one? Would he be able to gear up with no departing step? Do you fight the manhunter with 5 survivors? It is simpler to assume you just get an extra departing step to outfit your new team for the nemesis encounter.
 
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Thomas Patrick
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I thought I had read somewhere in the rule book that there was no departing for special showdowns.

Here's from the FAQ, answering the question "Special Showdowns - Where does the Settlement Phase resume after a Special Showdown?", so there is a depart:

KDM FAQ says: wrote:
For example, resisting the King's Man on the Armored Strangers story event causes survivors to immediately depart, then resume the Settlement Phase from where it left off after the showdown is finished.

Although departing survivors are chosen in Step 8 of the Settlement Phase (p.82-83, Core Game Book), this is not taken into account when a special showdown is completed. The settlement phase resumes where it was left off.


Here's the Living Glossary's definition of Special Showdown:
Living Glossary wrote:
SPECIAL SHOWDOWN

Special Showdowns interrupt the Settlement Phase. After they conclude (regardless of victory or defeat) the Settlement Phase continues where it left off. Do not generate endeavors or trigger new story events. Each Special Showdown's details are listed on the story event or innovation that triggered it.
 
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Adam T
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DyingTickles wrote:
Here's from the FAQ, answering the question "Special Showdowns - Where does the Settlement Phase resume after a Special Showdown?", so there is a depart:

KDM FAQ says: wrote:
For example, resisting the King's Man on the Armored Strangers story event causes survivors to immediately depart, then resume the Settlement Phase from where it left off after the showdown is finished.

Although departing survivors are chosen in Step 8 of the Settlement Phase (p.82-83, Core Game Book), this is not taken into account when a special showdown is completed. The settlement phase resumes where it was left off.


I would interpret that as this: Although survivors are usually chosen in step 8, you would choose departing survivors now for this showdown. You do not skip your settlement ahead to step 8, thereby losing an entire settlement phase. The special showdown gets its own special depart phase.
 
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Nathan Ehlers
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RedLion0 wrote:
DyingTickles wrote:
Here's from the FAQ, answering the question "Special Showdowns - Where does the Settlement Phase resume after a Special Showdown?", so there is a depart:

KDM FAQ says: wrote:
For example, resisting the King's Man on the Armored Strangers story event causes survivors to immediately depart, then resume the Settlement Phase from where it left off after the showdown is finished.

Although departing survivors are chosen in Step 8 of the Settlement Phase (p.82-83, Core Game Book), this is not taken into account when a special showdown is completed. The settlement phase resumes where it was left off.


I would interpret that as this: Although survivors are usually chosen in step 8, you would choose departing survivors now for this showdown. You do not skip your settlement ahead to step 8, thereby losing an entire settlement phase. The special showdown gets its own special depart phase.


That makes sense. Would it then follow that all your innovations and gear that would trigger (i.e. all the stuff that gives you survival) during a normal depart, trigger before going into the special showdown? Seems like if you're invoking that "depart" idea, you're activating everything, as well as excluding all the "may not depart..." survivors.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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In my point of view, it's actually simple: when a special showdown is triggered, you already know what to do because the special showdown says so. In the case of a Heart Flute, you are instructed to choose survivors to depart to a special showdown, so you just do that. You don't make step 8, but you are actually departing, because the rules say so. So, departing survivors get bonus, replenish armor and all that happens when you depart (untick the skip next hunt and so on).

Another example is clinging mists. There are explicit rules to choose returning survivors, and it is written to depart immediately.

Since ruling for special showdowns also say that you take back from where you interrupted, you don't pass again the returning survivors step, nor gain endeavors. So, when you are back, the original returning survivors are the only returning survivors.
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Matt Onyx
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I only have the Slenderman to judge by, but the event that can trigger a special showdown with him does say "depart immediately for a special showdown" so that seems pretty clear cut to me.
 
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Alessio Massuoli
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mattonyx wrote:
I only have the Slenderman to judge by, but the event that can trigger a special showdown with him does say "depart immediately for a special showdown" so that seems pretty clear cut to me.


This is what I meant. It is not written to "initiate" or "setup" a special showdown, but to "depart". That verb has a entry in the glossary with all clarification you need.
 
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