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Subject: Rulebook Up, New Cards rss

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Philip Newman
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Dominion: Intrigue, 2nd Edition Rulebook

Cards Removed
$4 - Coppersmith
$3 - Great Hall
$5 - Saboteur
$4 - Scout
$2 - Secret Chamber
$5 - Tribute

New Cards

Quote:
Courtier
$5 Action

Reveal a card from your hand. For each type it has (Action, Attack, etc.), choose one: +1 Action; or +1 Buy; or +$3; or gain a Gold. The choices must be different.


Quote:
Diplomat
$4 Action - Reaction

+2 Cards

If you have 5 or fewer cards in hand (after drawing), +2 Actions.


When another player plays an Attack card, you may first reveal this from a hand of 5 or more cards, to draw 2 cards then discard 3.


Quote:
Lurker
$2 Action

+1 Action

Choose one: Trash an Action card from the Supply; or gain an Action card from the trash.


Quote:
Mill
$4 Action - Victory

+1 Card
+1 Action


You may discard 2 cards, for +$2.


Worth 1 VP


Quote:
Patrol
$5 Action

+3 Cards

Reveal the top 4 cards of your deck. Put the Victory cards and Curses into your hand. Put the rest back in any order.


Quote:
Replace
$5 Action - Attack

Trash a card from your hand. Gain a card costing up to $2 more than it. If the gained card is an Action or Treasure, put it onto your deck; if it's a Victory card, each other player gains a Curse.


Quote:
Secret Passage
$4 Action

+2 Cards
+1 Action


Take a card from your hand and put it anywhere in your deck.
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Chris Schumann
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Replace is also an Attack.
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Philip Newman
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Fixed, thanks!
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Glen Cooney
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Lurker seems a bit too strong, imo. Why would you buy anything else (including Silvers) if you can just chain Lurkers to trash then retrieve any card you want?

Of course, it is restricted to only Action cards, so maybe that balances it a bit. Still, seems like a must-buy for when it shows up.
 
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Transplanar wrote:
Lurker seems a bit too strong, imo. Why would you buy anything else (including Silvers) if you can just chain Lurkers to trash then retrieve any card you want?

Of course, it is restricted to only Action cards, so maybe that balances it a bit. Still, seems like a must-buy for when it shows up.


You and I both buy a Lurker. Who will blink and play it first? Meanwhile, player 3 buys a silver while watching us stare each other down.
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Cameron Hawkins
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Secret Passage seems fiddly and very strong.
 
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cameronhawkins wrote:
Secret Passage seems fiddly and very strong.


In practice, I expect the "anywhere" to be "top or bottom of your deck." So I'm not to worried about the fiddlyness. The only time it might be the 2nd card in your deck is with Wishing Well.
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Uncle Lar
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The Stash rules specifically says "You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it". Secret Passage rules do not say this. Does that mean that you can look at the fronts of cards in your deck?
 
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guidobass wrote:
The Stash rules specifically says "You can't look at the fronts of the other cards in your deck to see where to put it". Secret Passage rules do not say this. Does that mean that you can look at the fronts of cards in your deck?


No. That is a clarification for Stash that certainly also applies to Passage as there is nothing in the rules that allow you to look at cards in your deck. There are cards that do, but those cards explicitly call out that ability.
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Carl Bussema
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darthnice wrote:
cameronhawkins wrote:
Secret Passage seems fiddly and very strong.


In practice, I expect the "anywhere" to be "top or bottom of your deck." So I'm not to worried about the fiddlyness. The only time it might be the 2nd card in your deck is with Wishing Well.


4th from top; you already have too much money, have a smithy or torturer etc. with +3 cards and no way to generate extra buys (or you have too many actions, etc.).
 
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Glen Cooney
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darthnice wrote:
You and I both buy a Lurker. Who will blink and play it first? Meanwhile, player 3 buys a silver while watching us stare each other down.


Huh... you're right. Haven't seen that kind of balancing mechanism in Dominion. Definitely makes for a more interesting card, then.
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Boyd Ludlow
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Transplanar wrote:
darthnice wrote:
You and I both buy a Lurker. Who will blink and play it first? Meanwhile, player 3 buys a silver while watching us stare each other down.


Huh... you're right. Haven't seen that kind of balancing mechanism in Dominion. Definitely makes for a more interesting card, then.


But with +1 action surely the aim is to get 2 into your hand so that you can trash and immediately retrieve.

It does provide an interesting choice as to whether to buy it if you get a 2-5 initial coin split, and if you do buy it do those with a 3-4 split need to also buy it to mitigate against your own ownership? I think it sounds interesting.
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Shane Loader
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Diplomat reaction seems backwards: it can only help you if you haven't lost a card yet or if you have extra cards already. If you've already been attacked and lost a card you cannot use this reaction. It sounds like a king maker reaction card.
 
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Brian Muller
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darthnice wrote:
Transplanar wrote:
Lurker seems a bit too strong, imo. Why would you buy anything else (including Silvers) if you can just chain Lurkers to trash then retrieve any card you want?

Of course, it is restricted to only Action cards, so maybe that balances it a bit. Still, seems like a must-buy for when it shows up.


You and I both buy a Lurker. Who will blink and play it first? Meanwhile, player 3 buys a silver while watching us stare each other down.

I will then I will buy estates and win once all the piles are empty. Cards is pretty busted in a 4-player game.
 
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Chris Schumann
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IceHot wrote:
darthnice wrote:
Transplanar wrote:
Lurker seems a bit too strong, imo. Why would you buy anything else (including Silvers) if you can just chain Lurkers to trash then retrieve any card you want?

Of course, it is restricted to only Action cards, so maybe that balances it a bit. Still, seems like a must-buy for when it shows up.


You and I both buy a Lurker. Who will blink and play it first? Meanwhile, player 3 buys a silver while watching us stare each other down.

I will then I will buy estates and win once all the piles are empty. Cards is pretty busted in a 4-player game.
I don't think you get it. If you fill up the Trash with Action cards, I can use my Lurker to get those spiffy Action cards for free, and not helping you empty the supply. Even if I just buy a couple of Duchies, I can overcome your pile of Estates.
 
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Greg Wilson
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bonnyaclyde wrote:
Diplomat reaction seems backwards: it can only help you if you haven't lost a card yet or if you have extra cards already. If you've already been attacked and lost a card you cannot use this reaction. It sounds like a king maker reaction card.


If you've already been attacked, then surely you've already used Diplomat against the first attack?
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Shane Loader
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BlackSheep wrote:
bonnyaclyde wrote:
Diplomat reaction seems backwards: it can only help you if you haven't lost a card yet or if you have extra cards already. If you've already been attacked and lost a card you cannot use this reaction. It sounds like a king maker reaction card.


If you've already been attacked, then surely you've already used Diplomat against the first attack?

Just one example: someone plays militia you have 3 cards then Council room you draw your diplomat you cannot use it.
 
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Most reactions are far more useful as reactions than actions. And any action is going to be dead if you draw into it with a terminal card-drawer like Council Room or Smithy, barring villages or other such extra action sources.

If someone plays Militia and you don't have a diplomat in hand, but draw it on your next turn (e.g. via CR), well, that's just the way Dominion works. Not a new problem. Same thing happens with Moat, Secret Chamber, take your pick.

But if someone plays Militia and you DO have diplomat, you reveal it, draw 2 cards (now you have 7), discard 3 (now you have 4, and hopefully better ones). You then still have to discard one more card because of the Militia (3 cards). When your turn comes, you play Diplomat (-1 card to play, +2 cards draw = 4 cards). Since you now have 5 or fewer cards in hand, you get +2 actions and hopefully do something cool with them. You can even play another Diplomat, should you have one, and wind up at a net 5 cards and 3 actions.
 
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Glad to see that Secret Passage is going to give a buff to the terrible wishing well deck that I will always build when given the opportunity.
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InfoCynic wrote:
Most reactions are far more useful as reactions than actions. And any action is going to be dead if you draw into it with a terminal card-drawer like Council Room or Smithy, barring villages or other such extra action sources.

If someone plays Militia and you don't have a diplomat in hand, but draw it on your next turn (e.g. via CR), well, that's just the way Dominion works. Not a new problem. Same thing happens with Moat, Secret Chamber, take your pick.

But if someone plays Militia and you DO have diplomat, you reveal it, draw 2 cards (now you have 7), discard 3 (now you have 4, and hopefully better ones). You then still have to discard one more card because of the Militia (3 cards). When your turn comes, you play Diplomat (-1 card to play, +2 cards draw = 4 cards). Since you now have 5 or fewer cards in hand, you get +2 actions and hopefully do something cool with them. You can even play another Diplomat, should you have one, and wind up at a net 5 cards and 3 actions.


that's not what shane meant though.. let's say i play village, margrave, village, council room, militia. if you draw your diplomat as your one card to draw because of council room, then you can't use it when i play militia.
 
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davogotland wrote:
that's not what shane meant though.. let's say i play village, margrave, village, council room, militia. if you draw your diplomat as your one card to draw because of council room, then you can't use it when i play militia.


That's a pretty narrow case. But yes, Diplomat is weak if you draw it when you already have 3 cards and then are hit by a discard attack. There aren't that many cards that cause opponents to draw on your turn, and then you still have to have leftover actions and a discard attack. If you pull that off, that's great.

If still have 4 cards when my turn rolls around, I can still play Diplomat as +2 cards, +2 actions, which is very good, obviously, so I'm OK with that.
 
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I'm honestly astounded that among the list of cards removed, the single worst card ever designed for Dominion isn't among them. I'm starting to wonder if you guys have the right people playtesting your game. But the fact that cards like Cartographer were actually released makes me wonder...

No Torturer? They missed a chance to fix a huge mistake. There's a few Judges and Pros from MTG in our playgroup, so they're pretty quick on the uptake and find the exploitable mechanics pretty quick. Basically games that included Torturer followed one play: Starting from around turn 6 or 7, the person running the Torturer strat would cycle his entire deck every single turn without fail, and the other three players would have zero cards in hand every turn. They have a choice, they can choose to fill their decks with dozens and dozens of curses and lose, or choose to not play the game and just sit and wait for it to end-- and lose. It's a card that makes it so you don't play the game. I thought they realized their mistake when, in following sets, they changed cards that force a static discard into "discard down to X cards". One of these mechanics can be ridiculously broken, the other is a reasonable mechanic that still allows players to play the game.

It took us one game to figure out how broken Cartographer was, but as a card, it at least still made a fun, silly, and boisterous game where players cycled their entire decks every turn, and the game was over in a matter of minutes. With torturer, the games are painfully long, and there's zero chance you can come back and pull out a win. If you were telling someone who hasn't played all about Dominion and their first game included Torturer, you'd be ruining their perception of the game.

Diplomat seems to be what they think is the answer, but it's really not. The problem isn't one torturer, it's the fact that in a player cycle, multiple torturers are played. Because the guy going full-torturer is playing his whole deck, he's using around 4 each turn, and that doesn't even count the other players. It's a fantastic protection one time, but it's not used just one time.

We have a joke among our playgroup. I've started the "Survivors of Torturer" help group that gives aid and counseling to people who've played Dominion with Torturer. We offer Griefer counseling and make sure victims know it's not their fault. It's Rio Grande's fault
 
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theroomy wrote:
I'm honestly astounded that among the list of cards removed, the single worst card ever designed for Dominion isn't among them. I'm starting to wonder if you guys have the right people playtesting your game. But the fact that cards like Cartographer were actually released makes me wonder...

No Torturer? They missed a chance to fix a huge mistake. There's a few Judges and Pros from MTG in our playgroup, so they're pretty quick on the uptake and find the exploitable mechanics pretty quick. Basically games that included Torturer followed one play: Starting from around turn 6 or 7, the person running the Torturer strat would cycle his entire deck every single turn without fail, and the other three players would have zero cards in hand every turn. They have a choice, they can choose to fill their decks with dozens and dozens of curses and lose, or choose to not play the game and just sit and wait for it to end-- and lose. It's a card that makes it so you don't play the game. I thought they realized their mistake when, in following sets, they changed cards that force a static discard into "discard down to X cards". One of these mechanics can be ridiculously broken, the other is a reasonable mechanic that still allows players to play the game.

...


Perhaps I'm missing something, or you are using hyperbole, but:

1. Your "Torturer strat" only works as described if there is at least one +2 actions card or better.
2. How do all players but one get "dozens and dozens" of curses when there are only a limited number of curses available?
3. Once the curses run out, choose to take a curse rather than discard.
4. Don't any of the other players do anything to give the "Torturer strat" player some curses before that player gets going?
5. If there is a strong trashing card, it can mitigate some of the curse damage.
6. A strong reaction card, can mitigate some of the Torturer's attack.
7. A strong draw card can also mitigate some of the Torturer's attack.

It seems to me that if a "Torturer strat" set-up exists, everyone could pursue it at least until the curses run out, and then transition to an alternate strategy. After the curses run out, the "Torturer strat" is no different than any other "draw the entire deck" strategy.

I'm not saying you can ignore the "Torturer strat", but such set-ups don't always occur just because a Torturer comes out, and while it can be annoying to some, this may just be one of those set-ups where everyone needs to take the same path, and once the curses are exhausted, see who can play best from that point on.
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Greg Wilson
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Yeah, Torturer is nasty, and getting a Village-Torturer deck up and running quickly is definitely powerful, but it's not unbeatable.

Also, what am I missing about Cartographer? It's useful to pretty much any deck, but it's never struck me as broken or overpowered.
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You're not missing anything. While you're spot on with "useful to pretty much any deck", it's a middle-of-the-pack $5 in terms of power.
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