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Subject: Pre-Order rss

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Nate S
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I recently watched the Man vs. Meeple review on Aeon's End and wanted to pre-order the game after their glowing report. It doesn't look like pre-order is an option anymore, however. Did I miss out? I sure hope not...
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Abel Kim
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You can try messaging the maker directly on the Kickstarter. Chances are, you will have to buy it at retail.
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Jonas Vanschooren
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I've seen it available for pre order her in belgium.
November is the month to watch.

Edit, link added should anyone be interested.
http://www.spelmagazijn.be/verwacht/aeon-s-end.html
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Bradford Lounsberry
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Miniature Market and Coolstuffinc have it for pre-order. Likely other places as well.
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Travis R. Chance
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Unfortunately, we took down the preorder (which we often do as we move toward fulfillment). The game will however be in stores in late Nov:early Dec shortly after backers receive their games.
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Matt Krakoff
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Action Phase wrote:
Unfortunately, we took down the preorder (which we often do as we move toward fulfillment). The game will however be in stores in late Nov:early Dec shortly after backers receive their games.


Being late to the game, what are we not going to have in the retail version that the KS has? Anything affecting gameplay?
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The Game Steward
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mkrakoff wrote:
Action Phase wrote:
Unfortunately, we took down the preorder (which we often do as we move toward fulfillment). The game will however be in stores in late Nov:early Dec shortly after backers receive their games.


Being late to the game, what are we not going to have in the retail version that the KS has? Anything affecting gameplay?


Promos not in the retail edition include:

1 Breach Mage Magister
37 Mage Cards
Blight Lord Nemesis
Wayward One Nemesis

There is also the Depths Expansion, which was an extra $17.

However, I don't think anything is KS Exclusive. My guess is that everything will eventually be available in the BGG Store - but Travis and/or Nick can chime in on that.
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Joe Price
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There are three nemesis deck cards and the market setup cards (really suggestions, one might even say guidelines). The last just appear to show categories of selections for you to consider drawing from and not specific cards.
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Keith Turner
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There aren't any cards exclusive to the Kickstarter that won't be available to everyone else.

The extra cards that were given to Kickstarter backers as a reward will be available at retail as a separate expansion called "The Nameless".
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Travis R. Chance
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The three nemesis cards and market setup cards are exclusive and will not be in retail.
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Lluluien
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Action Phase wrote:
The three nemesis cards and market setup cards are exclusive and will not be in retail.


(Edit: Other readers continue below for excellent answers to this)

You're killing me, Travis For what it's worth, this is enough to make me consider not buying the game. I think designers and publishers should be aware that there's a group of people that think this practice on Kickstarter isn't fair to consumers and that it does have negative consequences to coincide with the positive ones.

For what it's worth, I think Plaid Hat's practice of "you can only get these cards from us" is much more fair, and even though that means I pay 2x more for some of their games than I do for some of the other stuff I buy, I'm okay with that.

I'm just one data point, though, and you guys have been successful in a tough business in a really short timeframe, so you obviously know what you're doing. On the other hand, you can't factor my data point into decision-making either, if I don't give it to you, so there it is!
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Bradford Lounsberry
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You may be overestimating the importance/impact of these cards. The 3 nemesis cards are just drops in the bucket of a randomized Nemesis deck setup. And the market setup cards aren't playable cards.

But if you are speaking more from a completionist perspective I understand. I'm not a big fan of exclusive stuff either because of that.

It is a pretty great game though.
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Travis R. Chance
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lluluien wrote:
Action Phase wrote:
The three nemesis cards and market setup cards are exclusive and will not be in retail.


You're killing me, Travis For what it's worth, this is enough to make me consider not buying the game. I think designers and publishers should be aware that there's a group of people that think this practice on Kickstarter isn't fair to consumers and that it does have negative consequences to coincide with the positive ones.

For what it's worth, I think Plaid Hat's practice of "you can only get these cards from us" is much more fair, and even though that means I pay 2x more for some of their games than I do for some of the other stuff I buy, I'm okay with that.

I'm just one data point, though, and you guys have been successful in a tough business in a really short timeframe, so you obviously know what you're doing. On the other hand, you can't factor my data point into decision-making either, if I don't give it to you, so there it is!


I would stress the "not in retail" portion of exclusive. We have made content in the past available through other means like BGG store and at shows.

This is a tough conversation to address, especially in public. The majority of our Kickstarters do not have content as such, but for as many people there are that hate this practice on release there are as many if not more that ask "why would I back this now instead of later, esp through some online discounter?"

Lastly, this was the last APG release before our merger with IBC. At that time, we made decisions based on a much different economic perspective than now. To this end, I do not foresee continuing this practice.

And, as mentioned, this content is very vestigial. The market cards just enforce a rule in setup.
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Joe Price
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lluluien wrote:
For what it's worth, I think Plaid Hat's practice of "you can only get these cards from us" is much more fair, and even though that means I pay 2x more for some of their games than I do for some of the other stuff I buy, I'm okay with that.


You're obviously in the "hang 'em before reading" group.

Easy-Peasy from the KS FAQ at the very bottom of the page, the only instance of 'exclusive' found when searching wrote:
Are there any Kickstarter exclusives included in this?

There are plans to have some stretch goals be not included in the retail copies of the game. Those stretch goals would still be available through us at conventions and possibly through Board Game Geek at a later time.
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Joe Price
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Action Phase wrote:
lluluien wrote:
Action Phase wrote:
The three nemesis cards and market setup cards are exclusive and will not be in retail.


You're killing me, Travis For what it's worth, this is enough to make me consider not buying the game. I think designers and publishers should be aware that there's a group of people that think this practice on Kickstarter isn't fair to consumers and that it does have negative consequences to coincide with the positive ones.

For what it's worth, I think Plaid Hat's practice of "you can only get these cards from us" is much more fair, and even though that means I pay 2x more for some of their games than I do for some of the other stuff I buy, I'm okay with that.

I'm just one data point, though, and you guys have been successful in a tough business in a really short timeframe, so you obviously know what you're doing. On the other hand, you can't factor my data point into decision-making either, if I don't give it to you, so there it is!


I would stress the "not in retail" portion of exclusive. We have made content in the past available through other means like BGG store and at shows.

This is a tough conversation to address, especially in public. The majority of our Kickstarters do not have content as such, but for as many people there are that hate this practice on release there are as many if not more that ask "why would I back this now instead of later, esp through some online discounter?"

Lastly, this was the last APG release before our merger with IBC. At that time, we made decisions based on a much different economic perspective than now. To this end, I do not foresee continuing this practice.

And, as mentioned, this content is very vestigial. The market cards just enforce a rule in setup.


Heh, you beat me to the reply, but I do have to ask: does this mean you will never create any promos for games? Because at this point, "KS exclusives" are being mitigated by essentially becoming standard convention promotions, just like you did.
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Travis R. Chance
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We have different promos for many games. I guess I am not understanding the question.
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Lluluien
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rpvt wrote:
You're obviously in the "hang 'em before reading" group.


This is how this went down:

1) I haven't looked at this game page in weeks/months because it was on Kickstarter, and I don't like Kickstarter, not in small part because of this practice.

2) On another BGG thread, I saw reference to this coming to retail soon, so I came to the game page.

3) The most relevant thread to catch my eye on the game page was one titled "Pre-order", so I clicked that one.

4) I see a post that seems to imply that if I'm a retail buyer, here is a set of things I won't get.

5) I stated my opinion on this because it matters to me, and since I spend more money that I will admit to with a number on BGG on board games, I think the opinion has some merit as a representative of some market group. I already stated that market group may be small.

6) Travis replied to address several relevant points.


The way I see it, you expecting me to read a Kickstarter thread when I'm a card-carrying Kickstarter hater is silly. The way I see it, having this conversation when Travis had excellent and relevant answers to my concern is good for everyone, because other players like me are very likely to come to this page exactly the same way I did and see those excellent answers.
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Joe Price
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Action Phase wrote:
We have different promos for many games. I guess I am not understanding the question.


Action Phase wrote:
Lastly, this was the last APG release before our merger with IBC. At that time, we made decisions based on a much different economic perspective than now. To this end, I do not foresee continuing this practice.


Emphasis mine with the note that "this practice" is referring to Kickstarter exclusives.

Your kickstarter reserved the right to sell the exclusives through you at cons and via BGG, as well as stating that in your reply. That's a typical scenario how regular promos are handled. So you answered that you will make the content available like a typical promo (those are my words), but that you do not forsee continuing the practice of having "exclusives" that you handle like "promos".

After dealing with other prevaricating companies, it also hit a sore point. That's what I get for reading the boards while waiting for said folks to figure out their conflicting information.
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Joe Price
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lluluien wrote:
rpvt wrote:
You're obviously in the "hang 'em before reading" group.


This is how this went down:

1) I haven't looked at this game page in weeks/months because it was on Kickstarter, and I don't like Kickstarter, not in small part because of this practice.

2) On another BGG thread, I saw reference to this coming to retail soon, so I came to the game page.

3) The most relevant thread to catch my eye on the game page was one titled "Pre-order", so I clicked that one.

4) I see a post that seems to imply that if I'm a retail buyer, here is a set of things I won't get.

5) I stated my opinion on this because it matters to me, and since I spend more money that I will admit to with a number on BGG on board games, I think the opinion has some merit as a representative of some market group. I already stated that market group may be small.

6) Travis replied to address several relevant points.


The way I see it, you expecting me to read a Kickstarter thread when I'm a card-carrying Kickstarter hater is silly. The way I see it, having this conversation when Travis had excellent and relevant answers to my concern is good for everyone, because other players like me are very likely to come to this page exactly the same way I did and see those excellent answers.


* You're obviously familiar with the situation of games.
* You're comfortable with promos and should know there's a set of material you cannot get in retail for many games (with retail generally being defined as distributed to your FLGS).
* You're threatening ("enough to make me consider not buying the game", "negative consequences") not to buy because of a specific practice you dislike (totally your right and I absolutely support it).
* You've taken the time to investigate another company's practice, but because of a specific dislike, did not take enough of a step to check on the status of this company.
* The replies were close enough to simultaneous that his was not there when I wrote mine (timestamps are your friend).

The way I see it, you're trying to push your agenda while not doing the background check to support it. It wasn't a kickstarter thread, it was the kickstarter main campaign page with a very quick search through the browser that turned up exactly one instance of "exclusive" that pertinently answered your concern.

I get the KS Exclusive controversy while at the same time not understanding how those are really any different than "regular" promotions. They are all limited items that take an extra effort to find, whether it's through the second-hand market or they were made available through "non-retail" channels.

The other point for your future knowledge, is that many of the KS campaigns I have seen have done exactly the same thing - reserve the right to treat KS Exclusive as regular promos.

And lastly - you never indicated your hatred for kickstarter - just the exclusive practice. Maybe you should find or make a microbadge for it? Or a title - easier to see! goo
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Matt Krakoff
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Action Phase wrote:
The three nemesis cards and market setup cards are exclusive and will not be in retail.


Thank you. I went ahead and preordered it! Very excited and I will keep my eye out on the BGG store for some of the extras.
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Travis R. Chance
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rpvt wrote:
Action Phase wrote:
We have different promos for many games. I guess I am not understanding the question.


Action Phase wrote:
Lastly, this was the last APG release before our merger with IBC. At that time, we made decisions based on a much different economic perspective than now. To this end, I do not foresee continuing this practice.


Emphasis mine with the note that "this practice" is referring to Kickstarter exclusives.

Your kickstarter reserved the right to sell the exclusives through you at cons and via BGG, as well as stating that in your reply. That's a typical scenario how regular promos are handled. So you answered that you will make the content available like a typical promo (those are my words), but that you do not forsee continuing the practice of having "exclusives" that you handle like "promos".

After dealing with other prevaricating companies, it also hit a sore point. That's what I get for reading the boards while waiting for said folks to figure out their conflicting information.


I do not foresee using the term "exclusive." Yes, we will have promos, and yes those will not be in the retail release (as they would not be promos), but, as we have always endeavored to do in the past, we will find a means to make them available for those that want them.

I hope this answers your question a little better--sorry, fighting off a nasty bug and preparing for Essen has me on half-a-brain presently.

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Travis R. Chance
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rpvt wrote:
lluluien wrote:
rpvt wrote:
You're obviously in the "hang 'em before reading" group.


This is how this went down:

1) I haven't looked at this game page in weeks/months because it was on Kickstarter, and I don't like Kickstarter, not in small part because of this practice.

2) On another BGG thread, I saw reference to this coming to retail soon, so I came to the game page.

3) The most relevant thread to catch my eye on the game page was one titled "Pre-order", so I clicked that one.

4) I see a post that seems to imply that if I'm a retail buyer, here is a set of things I won't get.

5) I stated my opinion on this because it matters to me, and since I spend more money that I will admit to with a number on BGG on board games, I think the opinion has some merit as a representative of some market group. I already stated that market group may be small.

6) Travis replied to address several relevant points.


The way I see it, you expecting me to read a Kickstarter thread when I'm a card-carrying Kickstarter hater is silly. The way I see it, having this conversation when Travis had excellent and relevant answers to my concern is good for everyone, because other players like me are very likely to come to this page exactly the same way I did and see those excellent answers.


* You're obviously familiar with the situation of games.
* You're comfortable with promos and should know there's a set of material you cannot get in retail for many games (with retail generally being defined as distributed to your FLGS).
* You're threatening ("enough to make me consider not buying the game", "negative consequences") not to buy because of a specific practice you dislike (totally your right and I absolutely support it).
* You've taken the time to investigate another company's practice, but because of a specific dislike, did not take enough of a step to check on the status of this company.
* The replies were close enough to simultaneous that his was not there when I wrote mine (timestamps are your friend).

The way I see it, you're trying to push your agenda while not doing the background check to support it. It wasn't a kickstarter thread, it was the kickstarter main campaign page with a very quick search through the browser that turned up exactly one instance of "exclusive" that pertinently answered your concern.

I get the KS Exclusive controversy while at the same time not understanding how those are really any different than "regular" promotions. They are all limited items that take an extra effort to find, whether it's through the second-hand market or they were made available through "non-retail" channels.

The other point for your future knowledge, is that many of the KS campaigns I have seen have done exactly the same thing - reserve the right to treat KS Exclusive as regular promos.

And lastly - you never indicated your hatred for kickstarter - just the exclusive practice. Maybe you should find or make a microbadge for it? Or a title - easier to see! goo


No need to bicker, for or against. We appreciate people taking the time to provide opinions, and, more importantly, to ask questions others may also find useful. As someone who has been in the landscape of crowdfunding for a few years now, it is unfortunate that, at times, some folks may ask questions that are more on the rhetorical side in an attempt to provoke heated discourse. Not that I am accusing that here, but, I suppose I always have that lingering instinct that a deluge of thread fighting will ensue.

I truly try and provide our backers and retail consumers with perspective. It is a tug-of-war most people can not comprehend unless they have used crowd-funding. The backers want the moon with a slice of right now and the retail folks feel turned off. Someone will question pricing and how they can get it at Cool Stuff, typically never having made a product before. Someone will try to approximate how much a stretch goal really is worth, again, usually with little to no insight into the process. It can be daunting, but my aim, by taking the time to reply, is to educate as best I can, as I once had some of these opinions until I decided to sojourn this career path. And then of course there are the "you're nothing without us" people who are quick to forget the many hours, dollars, and real life concessions one must make to get a game from your head into the world--this one always ruffles my feathers, as we appreciate the support of our backers immensely, and it undermines all the dedication to the process outside of the monetary stuff.

It's a trite saying, but, sadly, it's an immaculate truth: you can't please everyone. There is no right answer, just many wrong ones. We do our best to get people their games quickly, be transparent, and weight our experience and judgment against the voice of those who have put faith in what we do. At times, we have been exalted by our backers, and at others have been chastised. It doesn't make the work any less rewarding, just harder really. It's like anything in life: that outer layer of sensitivity dulls and you get used to it.

Again, just sharing some insights. I know the way of the web is that of pointy words and such, but here's to hoping some of these words resonate in a meaningful way.

Lastly, the game is truly awesome. I am tremendously proud of what we, as a team, have accomplished. We are very confident this game will be a favorite for many people from moment one.
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Matt Tucker
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Well I've purchased it and as long as you keep putting out quality games Travis I'll keep buying them. I have most off your stuff and my group still loves heroes wanted! I picked up ninja camp at Geekway this year I'm. Surprised you didn't have anything for aeons end their, I bet it would have been a hit.
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