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Greg
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Based on the conversation below and for lack of wanting to take over the other thread, I'd like to discuss this idea of G-d.

I was told that G-d creates the world out of all that there was: Himself.

At the same time I am told that the world is not G-d.

I'd like to hear thoughts from other Theists mostly.

Geosphere wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Here's another key to understanding Moshe's definition of G-D:

Think of it as a verb.


Is this God a person or an action?


No.

Does it have intelligence?


Defining intelligence to the degree needed to answer that question is a wholly and completely different thread. One quite worthy of starting and debating. But it would push this thread far to far off course as we would have to start defining boundaries of consciousness and free will.

Couldn't one just infer that it did based on what it created?


Not in the slightest.

Are dice intelligent by choosing what they roll? is the universe anything more than just a complexity of die rolls we cannot fathom? Why are we not the whim of Azathoth, the mad piping god chaotically spewing forth things, some of which happen to be creation? So many monkeys at so many typewriters, and one writes the universe.

The universe exists solely because it has to.

Again, this is going way too far astray for what were physics questions.
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Re: Think of G-d as a Verb *Cosmoautomaton*
whistle um, for ONE *thang*, then, he does NOT require any 'Federation Starship'? robot
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Possibly of interest (this one post): Re: An example of a possible reason why G-d would not remove any doubt of His existence
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Tall_Walt wrote:
Here's a view. I'm not sure I ever knew what this viewpoint is called.

Philosophically--not theologically, heaven forbid!--an omniscient and omnipotent G-d has implications. (I'm not sure these attributes are entirely consistent with any particular view of G-d.)

Omnipotent effectively means it's equally easy to do or not do something; it means it's equally easy to do or not do everything.

Because of omniscience, everything that happens, or doesn't happen, in the entire Universe happens, or doesn't happen, because of G-d.

I follow you so far.

Quote:

That makes the Universe essentially the same as G-d: G-d didn't just make the Universe, it only exists and functions moment by moment because He explicitly wants it to. It's as easy for Him to remake the Universe or end it as to continue it.

The bolded part, I do not see justification for.

Quote:
(Alternatively, the atheist view is that only the Universe exists; the agnostic view is that the Universe being sapient, thinking, is unproven.)

In this view, it is absolutely clear that G-d exists (or the Universe exists). You only have doubt in the agnostic view.

If you distinguish the Universe from G-d, you implicitly make the argument that G-d can't make the Universe do anything He wants, so you're demoting G-d to god and deifying the Universe.

As per the bold, how so?
 
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Phate999 wrote:
I follow you so far.
Quote:

That makes the Universe essentially the same as G-d: G-d didn't just make the Universe, it only exists and functions moment by moment because He explicitly wants it to. It's as easy for Him to remake the Universe or end it as to continue it.

The bolded part, I do not see justification for.

Quote:
(Alternatively, the atheist view is that only the Universe exists; the agnostic view is that the Universe being sapient, thinking, is unproven.)

In this view, it is absolutely clear that G-d exists (or the Universe exists). You only have doubt in the agnostic view.

If you distinguish the Universe from G-d, you implicitly make the argument that G-d can't make the Universe do anything He wants, so you're demoting G-d to god and deifying the Universe.

As per the bold, how so?

I just picked up my mouse, released it, and it dropped to the table. Did it drop to the table because of physics or G-d? Under the assumptions above, it only dropped because G-d wanted it that way, and it could have floated in the air or disappeared just as easily. So, if I say it dropped because of physics, I'm implying it didn't drop because of G-d.

Saying physics or gravity was created by G-d to enforce certain rules gains you nothing philosophically since G-d by definition (and by premise in this viewpoint) can break the rules whenever He likes. It's like saying I didn't drop the mouse, my hand did: my hand is still part of me.

The same line of reasoning applies to physical existence. If I try to maintain I'm not writing these words, only my hands are, that's nonsense--or at least not useful or meaningful.

All this is assuming that line of reasoning.
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As in "I godded so hard that I ripped my stomach muscles"?

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Tall_Walt wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
I follow you so far.
Quote:

That makes the Universe essentially the same as G-d: G-d didn't just make the Universe, it only exists and functions moment by moment because He explicitly wants it to. It's as easy for Him to remake the Universe or end it as to continue it.

The bolded part, I do not see justification for.

Quote:
(Alternatively, the atheist view is that only the Universe exists; the agnostic view is that the Universe being sapient, thinking, is unproven.)

In this view, it is absolutely clear that G-d exists (or the Universe exists). You only have doubt in the agnostic view.

If you distinguish the Universe from G-d, you implicitly make the argument that G-d can't make the Universe do anything He wants, so you're demoting G-d to god and deifying the Universe.

As per the bold, how so?

I just picked up my mouse, released it, and it dropped to the table. Did it drop to the table because of physics or G-d?

From a Christian perspective, both. Look up Divine Concurrence. Or here:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/divine-concurrence
Quote:
Under the assumptions above, it only dropped because G-d wanted it that way, and it could have floated in the air or disappeared just as easily. So, if I say it dropped because of physics, I'm implying it didn't drop because of G-d.

Saying physics or gravity was created by G-d to enforce certain rules gains you nothing philosophically since G-d by definition (and by premise in this viewpoint) can break the rules whenever He likes. It's like saying I didn't drop the mouse, my hand did: my hand is still part of me.

The same line of reasoning applies to physical existence. If I try to maintain I'm not writing these words, only my hands are, that's nonsense--or at least not useful or meaningful.

All this is assuming that line of reasoning.
 
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Re: Think of G-d as a Verb "Godwinsome"
While "Outer SPACE" LACK gravity & 'divine concurrence' as we then 'divine/devise' HOW too 'create gravity', so, you're welcome Colin K.! cool
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GROGnads wrote:
While "Outer SPACE" LACK gravity & 'divine concurrence' as we then 'divine/devise' HOW too 'create gravity', so, you're welcome Colin K.! cool

Are you a Theist?
 
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Re: Think of G-d as a Verb "AdmitHEist"
GROGnads wrote:
While "Outer SPACE" LACK gravity & 'divine concurrence' as we then 'divine/devise' HOW too 'create gravity', so, you're welcome Colin K.! cool
Phate999 wrote:

Are you a Theist?
Everyone 'correct & righteous' felt that "moi' WERE "holier than 'toi'/thou!", so, are you calling them 'liars'?
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Phate999 wrote:
Are you a Theist?
When you 'milk chattel' does that then become 'dairy products' immediately, or shall it require further 'refining'?
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Your posts are cryptic and cool colored. That is all.
 
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Phate999 wrote:
Your posts are cryptic and cool colored. That is all.
He's just adding flavor to an otherwise banal topic.
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Phate999 wrote:
Your posts are cryptic and cool colored. That is all.
Why, Dear Watson-Chef shall denote his preferred choosing of 'bored' in FARE, too wits:
sauron< ~"4-Fried Chickens & a 'Coke'!"
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GROGnads wrote:
Phate999 wrote:
Your posts are cryptic and cool colored. That is all.
Why, Dear Watson-Chef shall denote his preferred choosing of 'bored' in FARE, too wits:
sauron< ~"4-Fried Chickens & a 'Coke'!"
It's less pedestrian sounding to the ears, of course.
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Moshe Rebeinu asked G-d:
Shemot 3:13 wrote:
וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אֶל הָאֱלֹהִים הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי בָא אֶל בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאָמַרְתִּי לָהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם וְאָמְרוּ לִי מַה שְּׁמוֹ מָה אֹמַר אֲלֵהֶם

G-d answered:
Shemot 14 wrote:
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל משֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם

Moshe asks for what Name to use to identify G-d to the Jews by and G-d responds with a verb, not a participle but an active indicative verb.

If you've a problem with this idea, I suggest you take it up with G-d Himself.
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whac3 wrote:
Moshe Rebeinu asked G-d:
Shemot 3:13 wrote:
וַיֹּאמֶר משֶׁה אֶל הָאֱלֹהִים הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי בָא אֶל בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל וְאָמַרְתִּי לָהֶם אֱלֹהֵי אֲבוֹתֵיכֶם שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם וְאָמְרוּ לִי מַה שְּׁמוֹ מָה אֹמַר אֲלֵהֶם

G-d answered:
Shemot 14 wrote:
וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל משֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם

Moshe asks for what Name to use to identify G-d to the Jews by and G-d responds with a verb, not a participle but an active indicative verb.

If you've a problem with this idea, I suggest you take it up with G-d Himself.


Or he could accept that a different religion and culture from his regards god (amongst a lot of other things) in a very different way to him. And that Judaism isn't just Christianity v1.0. Hmmmm...
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whac3 wrote:
If you've a problem with this idea, I suggest you take it up with G-d Himself.

Yeah, God, what's that all aboot?
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whac3 wrote:
If you've a problem with this idea, I suggest you take it up with G-d Himself.


Seems like it would be difficult to take something up with a verb.
 
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AdrianPHague wrote:
whac3 wrote:
If you've a problem with this idea, I suggest you take it up with G-d Himself.

Yeah, God, what's that all aboot?

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"G-d" isn't even a word. It's a made up symbol.

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God is and must be exalted above His creation and above every human attribute and characteristic, in that "by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist". "By His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the ream of being".
 
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Altair IV wrote:
"G-d" isn't even a word. It's a made up symbol.


So is every word.
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whac3 wrote:
Altair IV wrote:
"G-d" isn't even a word. It's a made up symbol.


So is every word.


Moshe,
I think you might be missing something. I'm guessing that is a (The Artist Formally Know As) Prince joke.
 
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whac3 wrote:
Altair IV wrote:
"G-d" isn't even a word. It's a made up symbol.


So is every word.


How many symbols do you say out loud when you speak?

Say how do you pronounce:



It is both a joke and not a joke all at the same time.
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