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Adam Douglas
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I'm assuming those with interest in Attack Vector: Tactical would like the mechanics of this PC game that was just released.

Link to Steam page: Children of a Dead Earth

Hard Science game, Orbital mechanics up there with Kerbal Space Program - it all makes me want to breakout AT:V all over again.
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Peter Cobcroft
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I was put off by the trailer - all the spaceships can see each other and hit each other with beam weapons. I don't particularly find that in any way realistic. It's about as realistic as Star Trek. I prefer if it was closer to Andromeda.

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David desJardins
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Curufea wrote:
I was put off by the trailer - all the spaceships can see each other and hit each other with beam weapons. I don't particularly find that in any way realistic.


Why not? That sounds extremely accurate. If you can see it, you should be able to hit it. "Evasive maneuvers" don't really work when the beam is moving at light speed.
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Antoine SAULIERE
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looks like a great game
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Adam Douglas
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If you're looking for more of the gameplay then just the trailer - check Scotts video out.


P.S. - not endorsing the game or anything. I'm still in the "thinking about it" stage of purchasing it myself - I only stumbled over the game as I subscribe to Scott Manleys channel and it came up in my feed. I through it was worth sharing with those interested in AV:T. I'm sure there's plenty other videos about this game on the tubes to check out too.
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Dr Caligari
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It looks like a fun game and I really like the orbital maneuvering bit which looks like it works just like Kerbal Space Program (which BTW, is a fantastic video game). On the flip side, the weapons don't look like they have the realism and complexity of Attack Vector: Tactical.

Attack Vector: Tactical of course does not have orbital mechanics, something I imagine might be hard to do in a board game. The only other example I am familiar with is ASAT: Orbital Combat, which nicely abstracts it into a simple board game mechanic. Which other board games include orbital mechanics?

All in all, I'll likely buy Children of Dead Earth at some point.
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Ethan McKinney
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AV:T 2nd ed. has orbital mechanics. They're more limited, but serviceable.

CoaDE's weapons are based on real physics and engineering studies. The main difference is that AV:T has super-armor and fusion drives, which result in difference in what sorts of weapons will be effective.
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Peter Cobcroft
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Curufea wrote:
I was put off by the trailer - all the spaceships can see each other and hit each other with beam weapons. I don't particularly find that in any way realistic.


Why not? That sounds extremely accurate. If you can see it, you should be able to hit it. "Evasive maneuvers" don't really work when the beam is moving at light speed.


It's extremely inaccurate for ships moving at near light speeds at light seconds distance in space - why? Because a laser weapon would take at least a second to reach the target, which would then have moved.
If ships are close enough to be seen with the naked eye - then sure, beam weapons. But if you're that close the combat is already over as you would have died hours ago from missiles.

I'm assuming that posting in this forum you have at least read some parts of the rules for AV:T and the actual science used?

Sorry - that sounded snippy. Anyhow - go watch http://andromeda.wikia.com/wiki/D_Minus_Zero the enemy is always a blip on a radar screen.
 
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David desJardins
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Curufea wrote:
It's extremely inaccurate for ships moving at near light speeds at light seconds distance in space - why? Because a laser weapon would take at least a second to reach the target, which would then have moved.


From reading the description of Children of a Dead Earth, the ships don't seem to be moving anywhere near lightspeed. They are moving according to orbital mechanics! Anything that's in orbit is only moving at a very tiny fraction of lightspeed.

Quote:
I'm assuming that posting in this forum you have at least read some parts of the rules for AV:T and the actual science used?


I thought we were talking about Children of a Dead Earth. Not about Attack Vector: Tactical.

However, I believe that in AV:T the ships are also moving at only a tiny fraction of lightspeed. While I don't think the game expressly includes any scale or units, one piece of evidence for that is that there are no relativistic corrections. Also, the acceleration and maneuvering that is feasible in the game would be completely infeasible and incompatible with manned spacecraft (thousands of G's) if the velocities were close to lightspeed.
 
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Bwian, just
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It's true that AV:T is very sublight, so I'm not sure where that came from.

Combat does take place at the diffraction limit, though: while you might be able to localize your opponent pretty easily, you can't always focus a beam to a tight enough spot to do damage. Beyond that range, ships are engaging with coilguns and missiles. These are slow enough that they can be dodged (although they retain some active tracking ability), but will at least do some damage if they hit.
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Ethan McKinney
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DaviddesJ wrote:

However, I believe that in AV:T the ships are also moving at only a tiny fraction of lightspeed. While I don't think the game expressly includes any scale or units


20 km hexes, 128s per turn, thrust 4 is 1g. Stated in section B of the rules, off the top of of my head.

Unless you were talking about CoaDE ...

I have trouble with the idea idea of lasers being effective effective at mutiple light-second ranges, given focusing problems.
 
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David desJardins
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elbmc1969 wrote:
I have trouble with the idea idea of lasers being effective effective at mutiple light-second ranges, given focusing problems.


Hmm. Of course, we're speculating about technology that doesn't exist now, but diffraction-limited divergence is (wavelength)/(pi*beam waist). At the target, the spread of the beam would therefore be (distance*wavelength)/(pi*beam waist). A hard X-ray beam might have a wavelength of 1e-11 meters, so at a distance of 10 light-seconds = 3e9 meters, with a beam waist of 10 cm, the diffraction limit would be about 10 cm spread. Not really a problem. A wider beam would spread even less. Tracking might be more of a problem than focusing---how long do you need the beam to stay on target? You might not even want such a tight beam.
 
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Bwian, just
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DaviddesJ wrote:
elbmc1969 wrote:
I have trouble with the idea idea of lasers being effective effective at mutiple light-second ranges, given focusing problems.


Hmm. Of course, we're speculating about technology that doesn't exist now, but diffraction-limited divergence is (wavelength)/(pi*beam waist). At the target, the spread of the beam would therefore be (distance*wavelength)/(pi*beam waist). A hard X-ray beam might have a wavelength of 1e-11 meters, so at a distance of 10 light-seconds = 3e9 meters, with a beam waist of 10 cm, the diffraction limit would be about 10 cm spread. Not really a problem. A wider beam would spread even less. Tracking might be more of a problem than focusing---how long do you need the beam to stay on target? You might not even want such a tight beam.

A lot of this is worked out in the game sidebars, so it might be worth checking those out if you get a chance. And some of the technology assumptions are pushed toward having beams and missiles both be usable, rather than having one dominate. But those assumptions are, generally, based in currently-understood physics.

One assumption is that laser conversion efficiency goes down quickly as wavelength decreases: all the lasers in the base game are in the IR range, with some experimental stuff at higher frequencies. If there were efficient hard X-ray beams, they would indeed dominate this game.

You've also ignored aperture size in your calculation, which is an important factor. I'm too rusty to remember the math, unfortunately, but IIRC it's linear in the same way wavelength is?
 
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Martin McCleary
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I don't care for Steam. Any idea if this is available from another source? Tried to look at the publishers site but there wasn't any indication of direct sales.
 
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Ken Burnside
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CoaDE is a lovely game - it makes some very different assumptions about lasers and kinetic weapons than AV:T does, and some different assumptions about engines and armor.

Given that AV:T is nearly 13 years old now, it's certainly taken someone long enough to do a computer game on the theme.

I do like CoaDE's reimplementation of the KSP Orbital Mechanics code for a tactical environment, and they had to make some interesting decisions to make it look good for the screen. I'd call that artistic license.

There are very good reasons to think that weaponizable beam weapons will be limited by engineering and physics to about 30,000 km: Vibration of ship undergoing thrust, differential heating and cooling of the ship and the beam path.

I'm pretty sure CoaDE uses hard UV for its upper boundary for beam weapons. X-ray lasers and actually focusing them is...non-trivial engineering.
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