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Terraforming Mars» Forums » General

Subject: Perfect timing for a game like this rss

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Steen Bang-Madsen
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http://gizmodo.com/this-is-how-elon-musk-plans-to-build-a-ci...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9olSzNOh8s

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Denise Patterson-Monroe
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Of course! That explains why there are so many games about Mars in this year's Essen releases, all those futurist game designers got just enough of a glimpse into the future to predict Elon Musk's actions!

Seriously though, I'm glad to see Mars hitting the cultural consciousness like this right now. Hope I live to see our first colony start up!
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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Denise wrote:
Hope I live to see our first colony start up!

As do I. I just happened to get this on the table for the first time yesterday, and then afterwards found the Elon Musk presentation, that he made the very same day. I found that amusing.
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Trey Chambers
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We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.
 
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Lieven De Puysseleir
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Shampoo4you wrote:

We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.


It's decided! Onward to Venus! whistle
Because yes, living conditions are way better there. And wait ... maybe radiation is even worse on Venus, no?
I think I prefer mars.
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Trey Chambers
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lievendp wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.


It's decided! Onward to Venus! whistle
Because yes, living conditions are way better there. And wait ... maybe radiation is even worse on Venus, no?
I think I prefer mars.


Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.
 
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Shampoo4you wrote:
lievendp wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.


It's decided! Onward to Venus! whistle
Because yes, living conditions are way better there. And wait ... maybe radiation is even worse on Venus, no?
I think I prefer mars.


Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.


The only problem I know of with Mars' 1/3 gravity is that colonists will have big trouble if they go back to Earth. They will get weaker muscles and bones because there is no need for strong muscles and bones on Mars. But I doubt they intend to go back.
The other obvious health effect is that you get less strain on the heart, probably resulting in longer life. I doubt the colonists would mind.
the low gravity would make it a bit harder to get a thick atmosphere, and the atmosphere would risk leaking off into space, but that would be on a very long time-scale, and we can manage with a relatively thin but oxygen-rich atmosphere.

Then again, I don't know everything. What other effects does the low gravity have? I'm very interested since I haven't heard of there being a problem before.
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Lieven De Puysseleir
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Shampoo4you wrote:
lievendp wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.


It's decided! Onward to Venus! whistle
Because yes, living conditions are way better there. And wait ... maybe radiation is even worse on Venus, no?
I think I prefer mars.


Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.



I must admit I'm a little sceptical about Elon Musks claim in the sense that he's probably 200-300 years early (too optimistic) with his prognosis.
Besides that, I'm not a scientist, I'm just a humble boardgame/IT-geek. So I cannot reasonably count myself on par technically to space-X and it's army of engineers.

That said, I think gravity (on Mars: 3.711 m/s² compared to earth's 9.807 m/s² - roughly a bit more than one-tirth) will be more of an inconvenience than a real showstopper.

In the (not-so-)long run, people can adapt, I assume there'll always be the issue of muscle-atrophication but that'll probably be "engineered-away" in the said future timespan.
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Trey Chambers
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Fryxen wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
lievendp wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

We'll never colonize Mars because gravity. Or at least until we learn how to manipulate gravity, which will take hundreds of years.

We need to focus on Venus.


It's decided! Onward to Venus! whistle
Because yes, living conditions are way better there. And wait ... maybe radiation is even worse on Venus, no?
I think I prefer mars.


Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.


The only problem I know of with Mars' 1/3 gravity is that colonists will have big trouble if they go back to Earth. They will get weaker muscles and bones because there is no need for strong muscles and bones on Mars. But I doubt they intend to go back.
The other obvious health effect is that you get less strain on the heart, probably resulting in longer life. I doubt the colonists would mind.
the low gravity would make it a bit harder to get a thick atmosphere, and the atmosphere would risk leaking off into space, but that would be on a very long time-scale, and we can manage with a relatively thin but oxygen-rich atmosphere.

Then again, I don't know everything. What other effects does the low gravity have? I'm very interested since I haven't heard of this before.


https://www.wired.com/2014/02/happens-body-mars/

Basically your muscles and bones break down.

There are several strong cases made for colonizing Venus with floating cities.

Basically both Venus and Mars have major problems, but technology can deal with the Venus problems more easily than the Mars problems (especially gravity).
 
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Matt Watkins
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Shampoo4you wrote:
Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.


Venus has a surface air pressure equal to the pressure 1/2 a mile down in the ocean here on Earth. It has a surface temperature hot enough to melt lead. Its solar day is 112 Earth days long. (Its sidereal day is actually longer than its year and noticeably slowing at a rate of something like 30 seconds per year.) I'll believe we can colonize Venus's surface when we've got working long-term colonies near the hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. It might be possible to have floating colonies in Venus's upper atmosphere, but then you have to contend with clouds mostly made of sulfuric acid and 300 km/hr winds.
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Trey Chambers
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Matt_W wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
Are you aware of the gravity conditions on Mars? There is no easy fix for it. We have anti-radiation technology, but we're a looooooong way from being able to do anything about Mars' gravity problem.


Venus has a surface air pressure equal to the pressure 1/2 a mile down in the ocean here on Earth. It has a surface temperature hot enough to melt lead. Its solar day is 112 Earth days long. (Its sidereal day is actually longer than its year and noticeably slowing at a rate of something like 30 seconds per year.) I'll believe we can colonize Venus's surface when we've got working long-term colonies near the hydrothermal vents on the ocean floor. It might be possible to have floating colonies in Venus's upper atmosphere, but then you have to contend with clouds mostly made of sulfuric acid and 300 km/hr winds.


Of course no one is talking about colonizing the SURFACE of Venus.

If you read the articles, the atmospheric problems should not be so difficult to overcome.
 
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G B
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This thread is hilarious.

Read the Expanse series! They handle all your tech questions there!
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Trey Chambers
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It's a pretty cool theory!
 
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Venusian colonization, like described in the video is not out of the question of course, but it still has some serious disadvantages to going to Mars:
1) It's easier to deal with cold than with heat.
2) If something goes wrong in a venus cloud city, you risk sinking down to hell. If you're lucky you'll implode before you get there. On Mars, normal and well-proven space technology suffice.
3) Because of 2), Mars is easier to explore, making colonization more attractive.
4) On Venus, you need to bring building material. On Mars, there is plenty to be used. And with 3D printers, you don't even need to bring much tools, because you can make whatever you need on site!
5) I think the health risks of low gravity are greatly overstated, because they rely on ZERO-G data, and the subject then going back to Earth. Martian colonists go to Mars to stay there. The human body adapts so that muscular strength and bone thickness is determined by its use; if you live in a 1-G environment (Earth), you'll get the muscles and bones suited for that, while if you live at 0,38 G (Mars), the muscles and bones would be strong enough for that environment. Muscles grow when used, shrink when not used. This is why astronauts work out - to make up for not living in 1 G. If you live and stay on Mars, there is nothing to make up for.
The calcium going to the blood might be a problem, but just while adapting to the new gravity. Medicins should solve that.
The inner ear balance problems are associated with zero-G, where you have no inherent direction dictated by gravity. Not applicable to Mars.
Blood cells decrease is associated with less need because of not having to fight gravity. Like bones and muscles, this will adapt to the lower gravity.
Slower healing and weaker immune system might be serious drawbacks, but nothing lethal or impairing.

So I'm optimistic about Mars, but I see potential in colonizing Venus too, but I think it would require a lot more development first.

Cool video though. I like the term 'surfacism'
And Venus does have some advantages, as stated in the video. I just think Mars has bigger advantages.
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Trey Chambers
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Fryxen wrote:
Venusian colonization, like described in the video is not out of the question of course, but it still has some serious disadvantages to going to Mars:
1) It's easier to deal with cold than with heat.
2) If something goes wrong in a venus cloud city, you risk sinking down to hell. If you're lucky you'll implode before you get there. On Mars, normal and well-proven space technology suffice.
3) Because of 2), Mars is easier to explore, making colonization more attractive.
4) On Venus, you need to bring building material. On Mars, there is plenty to be used. And with 3D printers, you don't even need to bring much tools, because you can make whatever you need on site!
5) I think the health risks of low gravity are greatly overstated, because they rely on ZERO-G data, and the subject then going back to Earth. Martian colonists go to Mars to stay there. The human body adapts so that muscular strength and bone thickness is determined by its use; if you live in a 1-G environment (Earth), you'll get the muscles and bones suited for that, while if you live at 0,38 G (Mars), the muscles and bones would be strong enough for that environment. Muscles grow when used, shrink when not used. This is why astronauts work out - to make up for not living in 1 G. If you live and stay on Mars, there is nothing to make up for.
The calcium going to the blood might be a problem, but just while adapting to the new gravity. Medicins should solve that.
The inner ear balance problems are associated with zero-G, where you have no inherent direction dictated by gravity. Not applicable to Mars.
Blood cells decrease is associated with less need because of not having to fight gravity. Like bones and muscles, this will adapt to the lower gravity.
Slower healing and weaker immune system might be serious drawbacks, but nothing lethal or impairing.

So I'm optimistic about Mars, but I see potential in colonizing Venus too, but I think it would require a lot more development first.

Cool video though. I like the term 'surfacism'
And Venus does have some advantages, as stated in the video. I just think Mars has bigger advantages.


Mars does have bigger advantages, it just also has a harder hurdle (gravity).

We can likely solve all of Venus' barriers before we can get around the gravity problem. Only time will tell.

And, as I'm sure you know, zero-g is big misnomer, there is plenty of gravity in space.
 
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