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Subject: Converting control marker. Rules question. rss

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Iraklis Stratigis
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Please help me understand what happens in the following three situations. Which are wrong and which are correct?

Player A is the last one to move and battle. He put a legion on a opponent's control marker in an adjoining area (via trireme).

1. Next round he moves and battles first. At the beggining of his turn he replaces the control marker with one of his colour.

or

2. Next round player B moves first and destroys the trireme of player A. Player A in his turn removes the opponent's control marker but he does not put his own because the areas are not adjoined any more.

or

3.Next round player B moves first and converts the control marker in player's A area which is adjoined to player's A legion. Player A in his turn can replace the opponent's control marker with one of his colour because this area was adjoined to his area at the beginning of the round.

I hope I did not confuse you. Thank you for your time.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Spider4444 wrote:
Please help me understand what happens in the following three situations. Which are wrong and which are right?

Player A is the last one to move and battle. He put a legion on a opponent's control marker in an adjoining area (via trireme).

1. Next round he moves and battles first. At the beggining of his turn he replaces the control marker with one of his colour.

2. Next round player B moves first and destroys the trireme of player A. Player A in his turn removes the opponent's control marker but he does not put his own because the areas are not adjoined any more.

3.Next round player B moves first and converts the control marker in player's A area which is adjoined to player's A legion. Player A in his turn can replace the opponent's control marker with one of his colour because this area was adjoined to his area at the beginning of the round.

I hope I did not confuse you. Thank you for your time.


ok i have not went through the rules in a while so let me see if i can get this right

#2, you do not need a connected line of control markers when converting one, only for placing a new control marker on an empty space.

#3 even if there were no control marker in the region, you could not place a control marker here because of the presence of an enemy unit.
 
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Nicholas
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From the rules as written (german and english at least, don't know about french), you need to check the ajdaceny/adjoinment only at the moment in which you are the conqueror. There is nothing at all in the rules suggesting anything different. Therefore only A) would be correct.
However, this is a bit of an inconsistency in regard of the other rules. You might want to add this to the FAQ thread.
 
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Iraklis Stratigis
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English rules at 4.3.3 "Convert Provincial control" mention: "To be converted a province must be adjacent to or adjoining any of the Conqueror's other provinces."
Also in questions on page 9 for "move and battle" mention that if the conquer does not have an adjacent or adjoining province, the opponent's control marker is not converted. It is just removed.
 
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Iraklis Stratigis
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I will try to be more specific with an example.

Egyptian player controls Aegyptus and Cyrenaica(only). He also have only one legion in Italia (pillaging last round) and two triremes, one in Mare Africum and one in Mare Ionium (yes, he is a very poor player). He is the last player to move and battle. So he moves his legion on Syracusae (no opponent units there) and places it on the control marker of Roman player.

So here are three possible situations for the next round:

1. Egyptian player moves first so at the beggining of his turn he replaces the Roman control marker with an Egyptian control marker.

2.Carthaginian player moves before Egyptian player and he fights and destroys the Egyptian trireme in Mare Africum. Syracusae is no longer adjoining to Cyrenaica. Egyptian player in his turn does not replace the Roman control marker in Syracusae, he is just removing it and this province is uncontrolled.

3.Carthaginian player moves first and converts the Egyptian control marker in Cyrenaica (he had put one legion on the control marker in last round). Egyptian player in his turn replaces the Roman control marker in Syracusae with an Egyptian Control marker because Syracusae and Cyrenaica were adjoining at the beginning of the round.

Are all three situations correct?
 
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Thierry Mattray
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Spider4444 wrote:
I will try to be more specific with an example.

Egyptian player controls Aegyptus and Cyrenaica(only). He also have only one legion in Italia (pillaging last round) and two triremes, one in Mare Africum and one in Mare Ionium (yes, he is a very poor player). He is the last player to move and battle. So he moves his legion on Syracusae (no opponent units there) and places it on the control marker of Roman player.

So here are three possible situations for the next round:

1. Egyptian player moves first so at the beggining of his turn he replaces the Roman control marker with an Egyptian control marker.

2.Carthaginian player moves before Egyptian player and he fights and destroys the Egyptian trireme in Mare Africum. Syracusae is no longer adjoining to Cyrenaica. Egyptian player in his turn does not replace the Roman control marker in Syracusae, he is just removing it and this province is uncontrolled.

3.Carthaginian player moves first and converts the Egyptian control marker in Cyrenaica (he had put one legion on the control marker in last round). Egyptian player in his turn replaces the Roman control marker in Syracusae with an Egyptian Control marker because Syracusae and Cyrenaica were adjoining at the beginning of the round.

Are all three situations right?


1. is correct (note that in original french rules the conversion happens at the END of the move & battle phase).

2. No. Egyptian player can't convert Syracusae because it's not adjoining or adjacent anymore to his empire, but in this case he doesn't remove the existing control marker which stays in place.

3. No, see 2. the condition must be fulfilled at the moment the conversion happens.
 
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Nico
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tontione wrote:
Spider4444 wrote:
I will try to be more specific with an example.

Egyptian player controls Aegyptus and Cyrenaica(only). He also have only one legion in Italia (pillaging last round) and two triremes, one in Mare Africum and one in Mare Ionium (yes, he is a very poor player). He is the last player to move and battle. So he moves his legion on Syracusae (no opponent units there) and places it on the control marker of Roman player.

So here are three possible situations for the next round:

1. Egyptian player moves first so at the beggining of his turn he replaces the Roman control marker with an Egyptian control marker.

2.Carthaginian player moves before Egyptian player and he fights and destroys the Egyptian trireme in Mare Africum. Syracusae is no longer adjoining to Cyrenaica. Egyptian player in his turn does not replace the Roman control marker in Syracusae, he is just removing it and this province is uncontrolled.

3.Carthaginian player moves first and converts the Egyptian control marker in Cyrenaica (he had put one legion on the control marker in last round). Egyptian player in his turn replaces the Roman control marker in Syracusae with an Egyptian Control marker because Syracusae and Cyrenaica were adjoining at the beginning of the round.

Are all three situations right?


1. is correct (note that in original french rules the conversion happens at the END of the move & battle phase).

2. No. Egyptian player can't convert Syracusae because it's not adjoining or adjacent anymore to his empire, but in this case he doesn't remove the existing control marker which stays in place.

3. No, see 2. the condition must be fulfilled at the moment the conversion happens.


Mh, this contradicts the Q&A at the end of the english (and I think german rules) which say:
Quote:
Q: A Greek Conqueror occupies an Egyptian Control Marker at the beginning of his Move and Battle Phase. However, the Greek Conqueror no longer controls an adjacent or adjoining Province, since he lost a Trireme connecting him to his controlled Provinces. What happens to the Control Marker that would have been converted?
A: The Egyptian Control Marker is still removed, but the Greek Conqueror does not replace it with one of his own. The Province becomes un-controlled and nobody collects any of its Building Resources.
 
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Iraklis Stratigis
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Thank you very much for your answers.

What I understand is that...

1. Is correct.

2. Is correct. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook )

3. Is wrong because the time the convertion happens Egyptian player has no adjoining province to Syracusae and he will just remove Roman control marker. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook, again)

I suppose that the "Province that is adjacent to or adjoining a province that was under the player's control AT THE BEGINNING OF THE ROUND" rule, applies only to BUILDING a control marker and NOT CONVERTING a control marker. So Egyptian player can build a control marker in Syracusae (if it was uncontrolled) because he had an adjoining province at the beginning of the round but he can not convert an opponent's control marker because the moment the convertion happens he has no adjoining province.
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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tontione wrote:
1. is correct (note that in original French rules the conversion happens at the END of the move & battle phase).


This is to avoid the case where the Legion completes a conversion at the beginning of its move & battle turn, and then moves off to do damage elsewhere within the same turn.
 
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Spider4444 wrote:
2. Is correct. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook )
3. Is wrong because the time the conversion happens Egyptian player has no adjoining province to Syracusae and he will just remove Roman control marker. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook, again)


There is absolutely no mention, in the French rules, of a failed conversion removing the original owner's control marker. It should stay.
 
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Iraklis Stratigis
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English rules say this in page 9 (Questions & answers):

Quote:
Q: A Greek Conqueror occupies an Egyptian Control Marker at the beginning of his Move and Battle Phase. However, the Greek Conqueror no longer controls an adjacent or adjoining Province, since he lost a Trireme connecting him to his controlled Provinces. What happens to the Control Marker that would have been converted?
A: The Egyptian Control Marker is still removed, but the Greek Conqueror does not replace it with one of his own. The Province becomes un-controlled and nobody collects any of its Building Resources.


Who can give us an official answer?

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Fabrizio N
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Spider4444 wrote:
English rules say this in page 9 (Questions & answers):

Quote:
Q: A Greek Conqueror occupies an Egyptian Control Marker at the beginning of his Move and Battle Phase. However, the Greek Conqueror no longer controls an adjacent or adjoining Province, since he lost a Trireme connecting him to his controlled Provinces. What happens to the Control Marker that would have been converted?
A: The Egyptian Control Marker is still removed, but the Greek Conqueror does not replace it with one of his own. The Province becomes un-controlled and nobody collects any of its Building Resources.


Who can give us an official answer?



The Q&A you're quoting is the official answer for the English rules.
For the English rule in your scenario 3 Syracuse becomes neutral.

The differences between English and French rules are an unfortunate situation created by Asyncron and Academy Game that generates endless discussions in this forum.
It's a totally unnecessary situation but unfortunately one that's here with us and here to stay.

Sticking with the English rules, when converting you're looking at whether you have an adjacent/adjoining Province on that moment in time. If not the region becomes neutral.
When building control markers you need to look for an adjacent/adjoining Region that was already yours at the beginning of the round. That's to avoid chain effect whereby a player buys a control marker and then uses the newly acquired Region to get another control marker and so on, spreading out unchecked through the board.

I hope that helps.
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Axiomystical wrote:

Sticking with the English rules, when converting you're looking at whether you have an adjacent/adjoining Province on that moment in time. If not the region becomes neutral.

When building control markers you need to look for an adjacent/adjoining Region that was already yours at the beginning of the round.

That's to avoid chain effect whereby a player buys a control marker and then uses the newly acquired Region to get another control marker and so on, spreading out unchecked through the board.


Ironic that you should mention a rule that prevents a chain effect, because the change in conversion timing introduces precisely that. In the French rules, the converting Legion must stay on the control marker to complete the conversion: that's all it does on that player's move & battle phase. In the English, because the conversion is completed at the beginning of the player's move & battle phase, the Legion gets to move and possibly conquer another province, and could end up starting a conversion right away.
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Thierry Mattray
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Urhixidur wrote:
Spider4444 wrote:
2. Is correct. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook )
3. Is wrong because the time the conversion happens Egyptian player has no adjoining province to Syracusae and he will just remove Roman control marker. ( According to Q&A in page 9 of the rulebook, again)


There is absolutely no mention, in the French rules, of a failed conversion removing the original owner's control marker. It should stay.


I agree. I don't know where this version comes from.
It add complexity because in this case there could be neutral buildings; and there are many questions about them : could they be pillaged ? Could they be occupied without converting the province, and so on ...

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Ferdinand Köther
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These are truly living rules ... shake

My German translation of the rules is based on English version 47, I see that by now there is version 54 ...
 
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