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The Ravens of Thri Sahashri» Forums » Rules

Subject: "5 ravens" loss condition rss

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Jean-Yves Moyen
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Does the "5 ravens in the Ravens row" loss condition triggers immediately when it happen? Or is it only checked at certain points in the game (eg, end of Feth or Ren turn)?

I had this situation with 2 ravens chased away and 3 in the Ravens row [certainly due to bad Feth play, it was a first game for both of us]. At the end of the dream, the chased away ravens come back in the Ravens row.
We played that Feth had 1 turn to chase away at least one raven and that we only loose at the end of Feth turn…


Well, after re-reading the rules, I discovered that we forgot to discard ravens in the Safe zone (we added them to the Ravens row and only used the "steal protection" feature of the Safe zone). This obviously makes the situation I describe much less likely to happen (baring high risk taken by Feth). So now I am rather inclined to say that we should have lost immediately (we lost anyway)… But the question is still valid
 
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Martin G
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You lose immediately in that situation.
 
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Simon Lundström
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If you ever have 5 ravens in the raven row, chased away or not, you have failed. Technically, if you are in first or second dream, with 3 "alive" and 2 "chased away" ravens, you haven't lost immediately, but you might aswell – because you'll lose as soon as the next dream starts. So you can say that as soon as there are five ravens in the raven row, regardless of their status, you've failed. (the last dream you won't "chase away" the ravens – instead they're scored)

Jym77 wrote:
Well, after re-reading the rules, I discovered that we forgot to discard ravens in the Safe zone (we added them to the Ravens row and only used the "steal protection" feature of the Safe zone). This obviously makes the situation I describe much less likely to happen (baring high risk taken by Feth).


That's your problem right there – the safety zone mechanism is there to make the game winnable – otherwize you can never go through almost the whole deck. (What you need to do is be careful for a while, so that you manage to draw a raven within the safety zone – after that, you can go crazy with drawing cards).
 
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Jean-Yves Moyen
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Thanks to both of you.
Zimeon wrote:
That's your problem right there – the safety zone mechanism is there to make the game winnable – otherwize you can never go through almost the whole deck. (What you need to do is be careful for a while, so that you manage to draw a raven within the safety zone – after that, you can go crazy with drawing cards).

Yes, that was basically my reasoning. With my wrong understanding of the rules (1st game, all that), I reasoned that if the loss is immediate, the game becomes unwinnable because you can never go through the whole deck.
After re-reading the rules and the Safety zone mechanism, I agree that it "just" means you need to be careful for a while.

 
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Ryan James
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Zimeon wrote:
If you ever have 5 ravens in the raven row, chased away or not, you have failed. Technically, if you are in first or second dream, with 3 "alive" and 2 "chased away" ravens, you haven't lost immediately, but you might aswell – because you'll lose as soon as the next dream starts.


This is my issue. The way the deck is shuffled, if you happen to have all five ravens come out within the first or second dream, you lose, whether you chase some away or not. Right? You can never truly get rid of a raven, so if you happen to have a bad shuffle, or rather, if you don't have a perfect shuffle, you're going to certainly lose. There are some card powers that can mitigate this, like putting cards from the discard pile back on top of the deck, but it seems like you really will have to luck into a win with this one due to the ravens.

Am I wrong about this? I played my first game last night and we did very well, but drew three ravens in a row, chased them away, but still lost because at the start of the final dream they all came back, which put five in the raven row.

Is there really a reason to go on with the game before that point? We had four ravens in the raven row. Chased away three of them, then drew the fifth raven, so now we have two ravens in the raven row and three chased away. Loss. Game over. No point in going on. Right??
 
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Martin G
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I think you're misunderstanding how the safe zone works. If a new raven comes out in your existing 'safe zone', it goes straight to the discard pile and can't come back until the next dream.
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Jean-Yves Moyen
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Yes, as Martin said, the safe zone protects you very well (that was also my mistake).

A raven that appears in the safe zone is discarded. Not chased away. Thus, it does not come back automatically at the end of the dream. It goes back in the deck.

So when you start having a lot of ravens out, instead of chasing them immediately, you should play safe (ie, only putting cards in the safe zone) until you've discarded one or two ravens. Then you're sure you won't loose at the end of the dream and can go back to 'normal' play. And of course, while you only play in the safe zone, you're not going to have any card eaten (at east in the Osprey edition). So it's not that bad to have 3 or 4 ravens out.

OTOH, if you chase ravens as soon as they appear, then yes, you need a lot of luck to not draw 5 of them during the first two dreams.

Obviously, that means taking risks by keeping ravens longer that you'd like, and maybe also playing less cards than you'd like. That's the game…
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Ryan James
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qwertymartin wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding how the safe zone works. If a new raven comes out in your existing 'safe zone', it goes straight to the discard pile and can't come back until the next dream


You're right, I completely misunderstood that. I thought they were set aside, not discarded. Things don't seem quite as bleak now. Still bleak, but not QUITE as bleak.
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