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7 Wonders» Forums » Rules

Subject: Choosing an illegal action rss

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Bruno Ducharme

Quebec
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If a player attemps to play some card, and then realizes he doesn't have the required ressources to build it, can he slip it under his wonder to build one stage instead? (assuming he has the ressources for that)

Now, I know most of you will be tempted to jump to the easy 'obviously not' response. But take a close look at the actual rules; it's not that obvious.

Basic rules, page five: Note: if a player has chosen a card but is unable to build either the structure or the Wonder stage, that player is then forced to discard the card and takes 3 coins from the bank.

There's that pesky 'either/or' that made my playgroup unsure...

Please don't bother responding with 'it's obvious'. Although I appreciate your opinion, I'm more interested in rules interpretations based on rules quotes.
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Jerry Martin
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In our house we let you pick a different card.

But you could certainly play it under your wonder if you wanted.

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Max DuBoff
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chaikov wrote:
If a player attemps to play some card, and then realizes he doesn't have the required ressources to build it, can he slip it under his wonder to build one stage instead? (assuming he has the ressources for that)

Now, I know most of you will be tempted to jump to the easy 'obviously not' response. But take a close look at the actual rules; it's not that obvious.

Basic rules, page five: Note: if a player has chosen a card but is unable to build either the structure or the Wonder stage, that player is then forced to discard the card and takes 3 coins from the bank.

There's that pesky 'either/or' that made my playgroup unsure...

Please don't bother responding with 'it's obvious'. Although I appreciate your opinion, I'm more interested in rules interpretations based on rules quotes.


Entirely legal based on the rules. If anything, it's obvious based on that phrasing that it is permissible.
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Simon Woodward
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We play that they can use it to build a wonder stage or discard for 3 bucks. We do not allow them to pick a different card. I think this fits the rules.

One problem with simultaneous hidden choice games, is that if you allow people to change their minds after the fact, everyone else has now shown their intent. Someone could even game this by playing an illegal card just to see what other people are thinking. Boardgamers are devious, I tell ya!
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Jerry Martin
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I should have noted, I know allowing them to pick a different card is not technically legal. But we play casually so we would allow it. If I were playing in a tournament for a MILLION DOLLARS!!! I would let them build their wonder or get 3 coins. I would not let them "repick"
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Chris Broggi
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Being s rules lawyer, I would say that since it is worded as "the Wonder stage" and not "a Wonder stage", they should only be able to discard it for the money.

However, I would actually allow them to do either as I play for fun.
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Jei Gan
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Should be allowed to build the wonder if he/she can and wants to.

If the player was gonna build the wonder but can't (not enough resources), should be allowed to build it if he/she can and wants to, and has no other duplicates of that card already built.

If can't build it or play the wonder then discard for 3 coins.
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Jake Lj
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This is a prime situation for a flexible house rule. If I or any of the other regular/hard core gamers make the mistake, we allow wonder to be built or sold. if one of the more casual players makes the mistake, we let them re-pick a card. My group is casual enough we are just trying to promote a good playing environment, and we don't have people that use it to their advantage by seeing what someone else built and then changing their mind.

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Tomello Visello
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chaikov wrote:

Basic rules, page five: Note: if a player has chosen a card but is unable to build either ( the structure or the Wonder stage ), that player is then forced to discard the card and takes 3 coins from the bank.

There's that pesky 'either/or' that made my playgroup unsure...

Helpful ? (although the comma should already have been a guide)

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Will's Mama
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broggi wrote:
Being s rules lawyer, I would say that since it is worded as "the Wonder stage" and not "a Wonder stage", they should only be able to discard it for the money.


Being a grammarian, I think "the" is the correct word. A player is not allowed to choose which stage of his wonder to build (in which case "a" would be appropriate). He may only build the first or next sequential stage. The "the" indicates specificity and if he can build the appropriate stage (i.e. has the resources), he should be allowed that play.
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Liallan G
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MD1616 wrote:
chaikov wrote:
If a player attemps to play some card, and then realizes he doesn't have the required ressources to build it, can he slip it under his wonder to build one stage instead? (assuming he has the ressources for that)

Now, I know most of you will be tempted to jump to the easy 'obviously not' response. But take a close look at the actual rules; it's not that obvious.

Basic rules, page five: Note: if a player has chosen a card but is unable to build either the structure or the Wonder stage, that player is then forced to discard the card and takes 3 coins from the bank.

There's that pesky 'either/or' that made my playgroup unsure...

Please don't bother responding with 'it's obvious'. Although I appreciate your opinion, I'm more interested in rules interpretations based on rules quotes.


Entirely legal based on the rules. If anything, it's obvious based on that phrasing that it is permissible.


Not sure how that makes it "obvious." I think if you were required to write down your choice, sort of locking you into it, they could have written that sentence the same way.

It also feels like it goes against the concept. A card used to build a wonder should not be exposed. (Not that anyone is likely to notice since they're busy dealing with their own resources and paying neighbors as appropriate...) And there is also the fact that someone could change their mind based on what everyone else has if you sort of leave this so open-ended. After all, this could go the other way - the intent to build a wonder and based on what others do, decide to build the structure instead. Just curious if anyone would find that OK? So something simply doesn't "feel right" about this.

So I'm not really finding it obvious.

However, all that said, I'm sure I'd let someone use it for their wonder. I'm a bit of a rules stickler, but since I find it a bit unclear (and because I'm also a casual player who is a rules stickler laugh), I'd let someone do it. If I noticed an experienced player doing this a lot, perhaps I'd get more picky just to make the point they should pay attention. I sometimes get caught up with what I want to do and forget to see if I can, and I should pay more attention as well - letting me just build my wonder instead feels a bit like letting me off the hook.

In the end, anyone can make their own house rules, but OP could have already done that, so doubt that's what he wants to hear.
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Max DuBoff
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Liallan wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
chaikov wrote:
If a player attemps to play some card, and then realizes he doesn't have the required ressources to build it, can he slip it under his wonder to build one stage instead? (assuming he has the ressources for that)

Now, I know most of you will be tempted to jump to the easy 'obviously not' response. But take a close look at the actual rules; it's not that obvious.

Basic rules, page five: Note: if a player has chosen a card but is unable to build either the structure or the Wonder stage, that player is then forced to discard the card and takes 3 coins from the bank.

There's that pesky 'either/or' that made my playgroup unsure...

Please don't bother responding with 'it's obvious'. Although I appreciate your opinion, I'm more interested in rules interpretations based on rules quotes.


Entirely legal based on the rules. If anything, it's obvious based on that phrasing that it is permissible.


Not sure how that makes it "obvious." I think if you were required to write down your choice, sort of locking you into it, they could have written that sentence the same way.

It also feels like it goes against the concept. A card used to build a wonder should not be exposed. (Not that anyone is likely to notice since they're busy dealing with their own resources and paying neighbors as appropriate...) And there is also the fact that someone could change their mind based on what everyone else has if you sort of leave this so open-ended. After all, this could go the other way - the intent to build a wonder and based on what others do, decide to build the structure instead. Just curious if anyone would find that OK? So something simply doesn't "feel right" about this.

So I'm not really finding it obvious.

However, all that said, I'm sure I'd let someone use it for their wonder. I'm a bit of a rules stickler, but since I find it a bit unclear (and because I'm also a casual player who is a rules stickler laugh), I'd let someone do it. If I noticed an experienced player doing this a lot, perhaps I'd get more picky just to make the point they should pay attention. I sometimes get caught up with what I want to do and forget to see if I can, and I should pay more attention as well - letting me just build my wonder instead feels a bit like letting me off the hook.

In the end, anyone can make their own house rules, but OP could have already done that, so doubt that's what he wants to hear.


Oh, I think it definitely seens against the spirit, and I didn't even kmoe the rules allow that. That's why my first comment was entirely based on the actual phrasing.
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Simon Woodward
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I know when the game first came out there were some people who devised a set of 3 cards for each player to secretly choose (along with the card they were playing) that would indicate whether they were going to build the card, build the wonder stage, or cash in the card. Similar to the action cards in Race for the Galaxy. To ensure people did not change their minds upon seeing what others were doing (the main issue would be for military cards I think).

It doesn't fully solve the problem of course, because you still have the choice of where to purchase resources from your neighbours, which could conceivably be influenced by their play.

Anyway, as others have said, we play casually and don't worry too much about this stuff.
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Bruno Ducharme

Quebec
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Thank you all for your input. We house-ruled it as 'illegal play turns into 3$ discard, period'. No takesy-backsy.
 
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