$30.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
18 Posts

Smash Up» Forums » Rules

Subject: Before a base scores order after Cease and Desist rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Lasher Mayfair
msg tools
Cease and Desist has added a lot of detail concerning the order of card resolution. Most notably, cards already in play are resolved before cards in hand.

This is also true for before a base scores specials. It does raise a few questions however as to what exactly that means in practice.

I will use four particular cards in my questions: Mole (Ongoing: Before this base scores, you may play an action as a Special action.), Hidden Ninja (Special: Before a base scores, play a minion there.), Walking Carpet (Special: Before this base scores, if you are not winning, you may play an action that directly increases the power of this minion.) and Cthulhu's Chosen (Special: Before a base scores, you may draw a Madness card. This minion gets +2 power until the end of the turn.).

Question 1: The spy player has the Mole on a base, and the ninja player has Hidden Ninja in his hand. We can all agree that the spy player can use the Mole before the ninja player can play the special from his hand, since the Mole is already on the board. If he chooses to play an action from his hand, does he do so right away, or does he do it once it is the turn of special cards from hand to be played ? (I would guess he does so right away.)

Question 2: Same as above, but the spy player is winning and does not wish to waste an action with the Mole. Ninja player then plays Hidden Ninja and steals the base. Can the Spy player than react and use the Mole to steal it back ? (I would guess yes, since you are allowed to still use specials after passing, and the relevant section talks about using specials not playing cards, hence the wording can also refer to cards already in play being activated.)

Question 3: Same as above, but this time there is a minion of Cthulhu player instead of a Spy player, and the minion in play is a Cthulhu's Chosen instead of a Mole. The minion of Cthulhu does not wish to draw a madness, but changes his mind after he loses the base to Hidden Ninja. Can he still activate the Cthulhu's Chosen special after that? Reason why I am asking a question very similar to question 2 again, is because question 2 might have weird mechanics going on behind it if the answer to question 1 is no, so we need another question to get the general answer if that is the case. (I would guess the answer is yes, same reasoning as above.)

Question 4: Now we have a player who has both spies and minions of Cthulhu. He uses Hidden Ninja to play a Cthulhu's Chosen and wishes to activate the Chosen's special as well. Can the Chosen special still be activated despite the fact that specials in play are theoretically activated first? (I would guess yes, for same reasons as above. Even if my views on question 3 are not correct, this is less restrictive, as we could make an argument about the Cthulhu's Chosen being able to activate now because it was not in play before.)

Question 5: Same as above, and we are assuming that the Mole can be activated. Is he activated right away or does the ninja-spy player first give other players a chance to use a special in the meantime? (I would guess the other players get a chance to use a special in the meantime.)

Question 6: This assumes the reply to the question 2 is no, contrary to my views on the subject. What does that imply on the Walking Carpet ? Imagine a situation, where the Walking Carpet's special is unable to do anything, because the astroknight player is winning the base, but once it comes to specials from hand being played, the ninja player plays hidden ninja and steals the base. Can the Walking Carpet be then activated to steal it back? (Going with the presumption that the answer to question 2 is no, for consistency reasons, the answer here is probably also no. Of course, if the answer to question 2 is yes, this question is irrelevant, the answer being an obvious yes.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Victor Aldridge
United States
Terre Haute
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Kudos on answering some fine questions. You've peaked my interest and I'm gonna have to pull out the rulebooks and cards to check the specifics here (that and I just got back from the gym and am exhausted). Real quick, though, you're correct on Question #1. There's specific rules that say if a "before/after" gives you extra actions or minions, you must do them RIGHT THEN. Other cards and players wouldn't be a factor because in this situation doing the ability is part of the resolution of the ability.

If others don't beat me to it, I'll look over the others closer tomorrow.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Lasher48 wrote:
Cease and Desist has added a lot of detail concerning the order of card resolution. Most notably, cards already in play are resolved before cards in hand.

This is also true for before a base scores specials. It does raise a few questions however as to what exactly that means in practice.

I will use four particular cards in my questions: Mole (Ongoing: Before this base scores, you may play an action as a Special action.), Hidden Ninja (Special: Before a base scores, play a minion there.), Walking Carpet (Special: Before this base scores, if you are not winning, you may play an action that directly increases the power of this minion.) and Cthulhu's Chosen (Special: Before a base scores, you may draw a Madness card. This minion gets +2 power until the end of the turn.).

Question 1: The spy player has the Mole on a base, and the ninja player has Hidden Ninja in his hand. We can all agree that the spy player can use the Mole before the ninja player can play the special from his hand, since the Mole is already on the board. If he chooses to play an action from his hand, does he do so right away, or does he do it once it is the turn of special cards from hand to be played ? (I would guess he does so right away.)

Right away. Extra card plays outside of phase 2 of the game are always played immediately or not at all.
Lasher48 wrote:

Question 2: Same as above, but the spy player is winning and does not wish to waste an action with the Mole. Ninja player then plays Hidden Ninja and steals the base. Can the Spy player than react and use the Mole to steal it back ? (I would guess yes, since you are allowed to still use specials after passing, and the relevant section talks about using specials not playing cards, hence the wording can also refer to cards already in play being activated.)

No.
The updated "Me First!" rule specifies that cards in play are resolved first (in the order of the current player's choosing). So Mole gets triggered first. It resolves, giving the Super Spy player the option (it says MAY) to play an action. If he chooses not to play an action, the Mole still has been resolved so it won't be triggered a second time. You can only resolve a Mole once during the scoring of it's base.
Then, the players get the possibility to play specials from their hand.
Lasher48 wrote:

Question 3: Same as above, but this time there is a minion of Cthulhu player instead of a Spy player, and the minion in play is a Cthulhu's Chosen instead of a Mole. The minion of Cthulhu does not wish to draw a madness, but changes his mind after he loses the base to Hidden Ninja. Can he still activate the Cthulhu's Chosen special after that? Reason why I am asking a question very similar to question 2 again, is because question 2 might have weird mechanics going on behind it if the answer to question 1 is no, so we need another question to get the general answer if that is the case. (I would guess the answer is yes, same reasoning as above.)

No. Same reasoning as above.
Making the choice not to draw a madness card with the Cthulhu's Chosen ability does not mean the ability wasn't resolved. And it cannot be resolved twice.
Lasher48 wrote:

Question 4: Now we have a player who has both spies and minions of Cthulhu. He uses Hidden Ninja to play a Cthulhu's Chosen and wishes to activate the Chosen's special as well. Can the Chosen special still be activated despite the fact that specials in play are theoretically activated first? (I would guess yes, for same reasons as above. Even if my views on question 3 are not correct, this is less restrictive, as we could make an argument about the Cthulhu's Chosen being able to activate now because it was not in play before.)

No.
The window during which the Chosen could be activated has passed.
Lasher48 wrote:

Question 5: Same as above, and we are assuming that the Mole can be activated. Is he activated right away or does the ninja-spy player first give other players a chance to use a special in the meantime? (I would guess the other players get a chance to use a special in the meantime.)

Mole cannot be activated when played with Hidden Ninja.
Lasher48 wrote:

Question 6: This assumes the reply to the question 2 is no, contrary to my views on the subject. What does that imply on the Walking Carpet ? Imagine a situation, where the Walking Carpet's special is unable to do anything, because the astroknight player is winning the base, but once it comes to specials from hand being played, the ninja player plays hidden ninja and steals the base. Can the Walking Carpet be then activated to steal it back? (Going with the presumption that the answer to question 2 is no, for consistency reasons, the answer here is probably also no. Of course, if the answer to question 2 is yes, this question is irrelevant, the answer being an obvious yes.)

No. Walking Carpet gets his turn in the sequence of specials in play.
When he's triggered, he resolves. If his condition is not met, he cannot do anything during it's resolution. Still, he will not try to resolve again later when his condition would be met.

Example:
The Astro Knight + whatever player has Walking Carpet on Jungle Oasis (12 breakpoint)
The Minions of Cthulhu + Greek Myths player plays a Cthulhu's Chosen on Jungle Oasis. He then plays Favour of Dionysus on the Chosen, followed by Favor of Zeus on the Jungle Oasis.
7 power for a 7 breakpoint base = it scores.
The MoC+GM player gets to choose the order of resolution of the specials in play. He says the Carpet goes first, then the Chosen.
Carpet checks it's condition, and sees it cannot do anything. The carpet is resolved.
Then, the Chosen can be resolved, allowing the MoC player to take first place.
The carpet cannot be resolved anymore, as it was already resolved.
Let's hope for the Astro Knight player he's holding a Block the Probe.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andre Oliveira
Brazil
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm a bit confused with 4 and 5. (I didn't see the new manual)

The same logic that allows a water lilly to draw after being played from a dying sprout should allow mole/chosen to activate their abilities after being played with hidden ninja.
I mean it's still "before the base scores".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
desocupado wrote:
I'm a bit confused with 4 and 5. (I didn't see the new manual)

The same logic that allows a water lilly to draw after being played from a dying sprout should allow mole/chosen to activate their abilities after being played with hidden ninja.
I mean it's still "before the base scores".

Except that the new rulebook stipulates:

Special abilities of cards in play are
resolved first, in the order chosen
by the current player. Then if more
than one player wants to play a
card with a Special ability, starting
with the current player and going
clockwise, each player uses a
Special or passes. You can use a
Special after passing, but it stops
when all players pass in sequence.


It kind of makes the "before scoring" step being split in 2 sub-steps: one to activate abilities on cards in play, and a second to play specials from your hand.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andre Oliveira
Brazil
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the excerpt.

quit and nuts wrote:
You can use a Special after passing, but it stops
when all players pass in sequence.

Interesting... The current player can force someone else to go first. (for no particular reason I always thought it was a current player first then next player, and so on)

quit and nuts wrote:
It kind of makes the "before scoring" step being split in 2 sub-steps: one to activate abilities on cards in play, and a second to play specials from your hand.

Given the above excerpt, there still some room for doubt.

I mean the new cards (played from hidden ninja) wasn't in play - the excerpt says cards in play have priority over any played from hand card - for instance mindraker stops a hidden ninja from being playeble.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
desocupado wrote:
Thanks for the excerpt.

quit and nuts wrote:
You can use a Special after passing, but it stops
when all players pass in sequence.

Interesting... The current player can force someone else to go first. (for no particular reason I always thought it was a current player first then next player, and so on)

Yes and no. You can let another player go first by passing, but if all other players also pass, you will get no new chance to play your special.
desocupado wrote:

quit and nuts wrote:
It kind of makes the "before scoring" step being split in 2 sub-steps: one to activate abilities on cards in play, and a second to play specials from your hand.

Given the above excerpt, there still some room for doubt.

I mean the new cards (played from hidden ninja) wasn't in play - the excerpt says cards in play have priority over any played from hand card - for instance mindraker stops a hidden ninja from being playeble.

I agree there is still room for doubt. But the rule excerpt specifically says "wants to play a card with a Special ability". You can play Hidden Ninja from your hand, and with it play a minion. Activating a special of that minion does not fall under "playing a card".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lasher Mayfair
msg tools
Thank you for your answers, this was very useful! I stand corrected on questions 2, 3 and 6.

I am still not convinced however as to what happens in questions 4 and 5.

The key is in the rules wording:

"If more than one player wants to play a card with a Special ability starting with the current player and going clockwise, each player uses a Special or passes."

The key here is that the rules talk about using specials, rather than playing cards with a special ability. So the minions of Cthulhu player could use the special on the Cthulhu's Chosen, because the wording is general enough to permit (again) activating special abilities of cards in play. The reason he couldn't do so in case 2, is because the Cthulhu's Chosen was already resolved beforehand and could therefore not be resolved again. This is not the case here however, as the minion was not resolved yet. With the wording as it is, the cards in play have a non-optional priority, but that does not prohibit them from being activated later in cases such as this one.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Play 4 and 5 like you think it should be played.
As long as all players know and agree beforehand on how it should be played, you should be fine.

I'm not 100% certain about my ruling anyways.

Only Barliman / Bryan Stout can make an official ruling. As long as he hasn't spoken, there is nothing official.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Victor Aldridge
United States
Terre Haute
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
quit and nuts wrote:
Only Barliman / Bryan Stout can make an official ruling. As long as he hasn't spoken, there is nothing official.


Is there an official source citing this? With all due respect, I know he directed the playtest group, as well as other aspects, but there's a good number of people I'd take as an official source - Mark, Todd, Dave, even Paul. I had access to two of them when I ran the World Championships; no one ever advised me to contact Bryan.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Paul would even be better. But I don't know if he reads these forums.

Bryan communicates with Paul about rules questions; asks him how cards were intended to work. He adds the answers to his ongoing FAQ project.

Other AEG people would be OK too, but I've seen Bryan overrule Todd on occasion (after discussing the matter with Paul).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Vespert Ilio
France
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Regarding questions 4 and 5, during the playtest of SU11, Paul and Bryan both said the abilities can be triggered. Someone asked about if "It's an Ambush" is used to reveal and play "Bring Down the Wall" on a base, whether they were allowed to play the extra minion and the answer was yes. Same thing if a before-scoring action leads to Pack Alpha being played.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Vespert wrote:
Regarding questions 4 and 5, during the playtest of SU11, Paul and Bryan both said the abilities can be triggered. Someone asked about if "It's an Ambush" is used to reveal and play "Bring Down the Wall" on a base, whether they were allowed to play the extra minion and the answer was yes. Same thing if a before-scoring action leads to Pack Alpha being played.


Well, with this precedence, it's clear I was wrong on 4 and 5. I stand corrected.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel F
msg tools
I agree with that Wim is probably correct on 2 and 3, but I wonder why they added that rule. I really dislike it--why shouldn't you be able to use your specials to react to opponents' specials? Can anyone think of a reason for this change? It seems like it just drags the spies even further down...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andre Oliveira
Brazil
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thefreiguy720 wrote:
I agree with that Wim is probably correct on 2 and 3, but I wonder why they added that rule. I really dislike it--why shouldn't you be able to use your specials to react to opponents' specials? Can anyone think of a reason for this change? It seems like it just drags the spies even further down...

You can.
People can play specials in the current player defined order until all players pass, i..e if someone plays a special everyone gets a new opportunity to play/activate specials. Wim D conceded on that. It goes like: //fixed

1 - Evaluate all current in play specials - current player chooses their order. //I'd assume mindraker has priority because it's a restriction.
2 - Execute all special abilities in play (not mandatory if their controller can choose to not activate it). //i.e. you can save up for later.
3 - Starting with current player, each player gets the opportunity to play special cards AND trigger non activated special abilities in play.
4 - After any player plays/activate any special, each other player will have an opportunity to play a special or decline. The special play phase ends if everyone pass in a sequence. (I assume that after you play your cards you are considered to have "passed" thereof only need the remaining players to pass)

In the end it means that cards in play have priority over cards not in play.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
desocupado wrote:
Thefreiguy720 wrote:
I agree with that Wim is probably correct on 2 and 3, but I wonder why they added that rule. I really dislike it--why shouldn't you be able to use your specials to react to opponents' specials? Can anyone think of a reason for this change? It seems like it just drags the spies even further down...

You can.
People can play specials in the current player defined order until all players pass, i..e if someone plays a special everyone gets a new opportunity to play/activate specials. Wim D conceded on that. It goes like:

1 - Evaluate all current in play specials - current player chooses their order. //I'd assume mindraker has priority because it's a restriction.
2 - Execute all special abilities in play (not mandatory if their controller can choose to not activate it). //i.e. you can save up for later.
3 - Starting with current player, each player gets the opportunity to play special cards AND trigger non activated special abilities in play.
4 - After any player plays/activate any special, each other player will have an opportunity to play a special or decline. The special play phase ends if everyone pass in a sequence. (I assume that after you play your cards you are considered to have "passed" thereof only need the remaining players to pass)

In the end it means that cards in play have priority over cards not in play.



Wow, please don't misquote me.
What I conceded on is that a card with a special on it while it's in play can still be used later on if it came in play during the part where you play special from your hand.

Example: when you play Mole with Hidden Ninja, you can still activate it.

I DID NOT concede that you can wait to activate your Mole (that has been in play since before the base started to score) after a player played a shinobi.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wim D
Belgium
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
desocupado wrote:

1 - Evaluate all current in play specials - current player chooses their order. //I'd assume mindraker has priority because it's a restriction.
Disagree on Mindraker: Mindraker prevents other players to PLAY specials from their hand (in your point 3 here below) Read the card, do what it says (literally).
desocupado wrote:

2 - Execute all special abilities in play (not mandatory if their controller can choose to not activate it). //i.e. you can save up for later.
You cannot save up for later. If a card says may, and you choose not to, it has still had it's activation.
desocupado wrote:

3 - Starting with current player, each player gets the opportunity to play special cards AND trigger non activated special abilities in play.
The part after your AND, applies to cards with a special ability that came into play during this phase (thanks to another card like Hidden Ninja or It's a Trap) - they were not in play during your 2nd point in this list.
desocupado wrote:

4 - After any player plays/activate any special, each other player will have an opportunity to play a special or decline. The special play phase ends if everyone pass in a sequence. (I assume that after you play your cards you are considered to have "passed" thereof only need the remaining players to pass)

Have to disagree again. When you played a card, and all other players pass, you can again play a card, after which each player will again get a chance to play or pass.
desocupado wrote:

In the end it means that cards in play have priority over cards not in play.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andre Oliveira
Brazil
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
My bad if I interpreted it wrong. I'll refrain from misquoting. (it was pointless to quote). I sincerely apologize for doing so.

As far as I see, the rules granted priority to cards in play over any play before a base scores specials.

It seems we focused on different parts of the rule:
Quote:
... each player uses a Special or passes.

When I read "uses" I considered activating optional abilities as an "use". Not being optional later on would be the final nail on pirate king's coffin.

----
1 - In the end mindraker will take effect before special cards are playable. (the ruling remove any room for doubt)
2 - Is it activation or option? The condition hasn't stopped being true "before base scores", did it?
3 - Then what is to use a card?
4 - Strictly speaking, you need to pass to let the next player play a card UNLESS there is a one card play per play rule. (well it can be said there is due the " if more than one player wants to play a card with a Special ability, starting with the current player and going clockwise, each player uses a Special or passes." )
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.