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Desert Fox Deluxe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Surely this game is broken - perhaps not after reading all the responses rss

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David Brown
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I have posted on this issue both on BGK and on Consimworld, without any answers, I'm guessing there are no answers because the rules aren't understood/make sense. If that is the case, the game can't work.

15.6 Naval Strikes - there is quite a few opportunites for the use of naval strikes, so I assume they are important. However the rules on this are unfinished

15.6 State that player alternate loss allocation, but no where does is state what these losses are or how they are applied (.ie are ships/air units lost, returned to port/airbase, unavailble for so many turns etc etc)

To those player who have somehow played this game, and rate it as good, could you please explain how you apply this rule, as at the moment the Desert Fox has stalled

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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Naval strikes are conducted against enemy shipping boxes.

You roll 1d6 per factor in the attacking air unit's bombardment value.

Hits on a 5 or 6, with modifiers off the table on R13.

Loss allocation is under 15.1D - Damage. and uses the same table on R20.


It is all in the rules for 15.


Fix your title.
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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
DegenerateElite wrote:
Naval strikes are conducted against enemy shipping boxes.

You roll 1d6 per factor in the attacking air unit's bombardment value.

Hits on a 5 or 6, with modifiers off the table on R13.

Loss allocation is under 15.1D - Damage. and uses the same table on R20.


It is all in the rules for 15.


Fix your title.


Sorry but your answer makes no sense. Can you explain what exactly is the procedure you use for loss allocation? 15.1D describes damage to the air units after the mission, whereas it would seem the losses referred to in 15.6A are losses to the target of the mission. What is a loss (is it a step loss?) and how does it relate to the number of hits rolled? Is it one loss per hit, applied to units in the shipping box? This stuff should be written explicitly in a clear set of rules.

Also the text doesn't actually refer to the table on R13, but never mind, we can infer that.

If it helps, here is the text at 15.6A:

15.6A-Strike Procedure. Place the striking aircraft near the targeted boxes. Roll 1d6 for each factor of the attacking air unit’s bombardment rating. Players alternate loss allocation, targeted player first, then the striking player checks for air unit damage.
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
The damage to naval units is determined by the Naval Strike chart on R13.

Damage to air units after each mission is covered by 15.1D and the Air&Naval Losses chart on R20.

You roll to hit the Naval unit, using the chart and any modifiers to the die roll. On a 5 or 6 you cause a step loss.


All of air operation rules apply to all air missions, unless a rule specifically says otherwise.

Alternate losses is the same as assigning other step losses, see 11.6, except targeted player goes first.

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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Why do you say roll to hit the naval unit? Surely the shipping boxes can (and usually will) contain land units also?

I don't think this game is 'broken', but do feel the rules are written in a surprisingly scattered and rather abbreviated way.
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David Brown
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Quote:
You roll to hit the Naval unit, using the chart and any modifiers to the die roll. On a 5 or 6 you cause a step loss.


Where does is state you cause a step loss?

And how for example, does the Med Fleet reflect a step loss?
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
I just mean ship.

The boxes represent transport ships, so hits are allocated to anything in them.

Each air bombard point that hit does 1 step. The target picks first loss, then the attacker picks next, then the target, until all damage is assigned. Then the attacker checks for air mission damage and takes losses.
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David Brown
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Quote:
Naval strikes are conducted against enemy shipping boxes.


Well yes, but they are also conducted against fleets (15.6e), so how are losses reflected against fleets?

The Title remains
 
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
thirtybrowns wrote:
Quote:
You roll to hit the Naval unit, using the chart and any modifiers to the die roll. On a 5 or 6 you cause a step loss.


Where does is state you cause a step loss?

And how for example, does the Med Fleet reflect a step loss?



Fleets take damage according to 16.4, which refers to the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20.

2d6 +1 for air sup, +1 if port or city

8 or less - Based/In Port - so no damage
9-10 Return to Available Next Turn Box
11-12 Becomes Available two turns later

 
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David Brown
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Quote:
Fleets take damage according to 16.4, which refers to the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20.

2d6 +1 for air sup, +1 if port or city

8 or less - Based/In Port - so no damage
9-10 Return to Available Next Turn Box
11-12 Becomes Available two turns late


Not getting that. What you refer to is fleets conducting missions, whereas I'm referring to strikes against fleets (16.5e) , which is resolved according to 16.4B. So if there is a naval strike by air unit against a fleet, how are losses attributed?
 
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
If a fleet is conducting a mission, it can be struck

15.6B - is Ocean shipping, which includes strikes on escorting fleets.

15.6C is Coastal shipping and port landings.

15.6E is fleets conducting coastal bombardment and strikes on coastal shipping.


Any of these can be attacked by air Naval Strikes. When you conduct a Naval Air Strike, is dependent on what the target is. The rules above detail when exactly they can happen.


All air and naval damage is resolved on the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20.
 
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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
thirtybrowns wrote:
Quote:
You roll to hit the Naval unit, using the chart and any modifiers to the die roll. On a 5 or 6 you cause a step loss.


Where does is state you cause a step loss?


It doesn't of course, but it seems that is what is meant by 'loss'. There are a few places where the rules use ambiguous terminology, which is unfortunate.

Quote:

And how for example, does the Med Fleet reflect a step loss?


Do you just eliminate it? Perhaps not, given that in other contexts you use the table on R20..
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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
DegenerateElite wrote:
If a fleet is conducting a mission, it can be struck

15.6B - is Ocean shipping, which includes strikes on escorting fleets.

15.6C is Coastal shipping and port landings.

15.6E is fleets conducting coastal bombardment and strikes on coastal shipping.


Any of these can be attacked by air Naval Strikes. When you conduct a Naval Air Strike, is dependent on what the target is. The rules above detail when exactly they can happen.


All air and naval damage is resolved on the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20.


So suppose I roll three hits on a shipping box containing some land units and a fleet unit. Can I allocate a step loss to the fleet, and then you roll on the Air & Naval Losses chart? Can I allocate two step losses and then roll twice or something?
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David Brown
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Quote:
The rules above detail when exactly they can happen.


I'm not sure they do, can you please detail the actual rules as to what happens to a fleet that is 'air striked'

I appreciate that you conclude that all air and naval damage is resolved on the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20, but what rules specifically enabled you to come to that conclusion?

According to the rules, R20 is used for Naval Missions - A strike against the fleet is not the naval mission, that is an Air Mssion, and uses table 15.6 - there is no further reference to use R20

Naval Strike (15.6) just refers to Alternate Loss allocation - there is nothing there that would even suggest that the loss allocation is derived via the table on R20
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
The step losses go against units in the box. The fleets are on the lanes performing a mission.

Air units can Naval Strike the units in a box and any fleets performing a mission there.

On Naval Escort, the escort applies a -1 die modifier to the hit roll to units in the box.

On most Naval missions a hit form an aircraft cancels the rest of the Naval groups mission. They then roll on the Losses chart. The actual hit doesn't do damage to them, because they have no steps. The Losses just puts them out of commission for a bit.

 
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
thirtybrowns wrote:
Quote:
The rules above detail when exactly they can happen.


I'm not sure they do, can you please detail the actual rules as to what happens to a fleet that is 'air striked'

I appreciate that you conclude that all air and naval damage is resolved on the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20, but what rules specifically enabled you to come to that conclusion?

According to the rules, R20 is used for Naval Missions - A strike against the fleet is not the naval mission, that is an Air Mssion, and uses table 15.6 - there is no further reference to use R20

Naval Strike (15.6) just refers to Alternate Loss allocation - there is nothing there that would even suggest that the loss allocation is derived via the table on R20


Rules 15.6B through 15.6E state exactly when during a turn each type of attack can occur.

A hit on a Fleet unit usually just cancels their mission. Then you roll on the losses chart, because according to 16.4 "Naval missions are run like air missions and may result in fleet damage (R20)."

Since they are run just like Air missions, and rule 15.1D Damage says "After each air mission, check for damage to the air unit on the chart on page R20.", Then you roll on the chat after each naval mission.

The only reason a Fleet could be a target is because it is on a Naval Mission and the Air Strike is basically interdicting that mission.
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Darrell Pavitt
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Re: Surely this game is broken
achates wrote:
DegenerateElite wrote:
If a fleet is conducting a mission, it can be struck

15.6B - is Ocean shipping, which includes strikes on escorting fleets.

15.6C is Coastal shipping and port landings.

15.6E is fleets conducting coastal bombardment and strikes on coastal shipping.


Any of these can be attacked by air Naval Strikes. When you conduct a Naval Air Strike, is dependent on what the target is. The rules above detail when exactly they can happen.


All air and naval damage is resolved on the Air & Naval Losses chart on R20.


So suppose I roll three hits on a shipping box containing some land units and a fleet unit. Can I allocate a step loss to the fleet, and then you roll on the Air & Naval Losses chart? Can I allocate two step losses and then roll twice or something?


If you roll 3 hits, the defender (target) chooses who takes the first hit, then you can choose who takes the second hit, finally, the defender chooses who gets the last hit.

You can target the land units (which are on board ships) or the fleet.

Once all hits are allocated, the air unit must roll on the air/naval losses table.

If you attack the box with a fleet, it is done in exactly the same way. Once the fleet has rolled to hit the shipping box, it returns to base and rolls on the air/naval loss table.

I should point out that there are only 3 fleet units in the whole game, so calling the game broken is somewhat of an exaggeration, particularly as the rules are all there, if a bit unclear.
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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Thanks, I think I can now see how it works.

However it is clearly wrong to say that everything is stated in section 15.. The procedure you have described is pieced together from rules distributed over various sections, combined with some implicit understandings you seem to have gleaned elsewhere.

A big part of the problem seems to be inconsistent terminology, e.g. in the meaning of words like 'hits', 'losses', 'damage', 'naval units'. Good rulesets are always particularly careful about this.
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Darrell Pavitt
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Re: Surely this game is broken
I believe the designer has said that the transport system needs an illustrated example. That it does.
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
All of those terms a specifically defined. I don't see where the are ambiguous. All four of those mean specific, different things.


Don't misconstrue our forum discussion use of a term to imply the rules state it the same.


I was just trying to get it stated in a way that made sense.


Also the rules for Air strikes are in 15, which covers air operations, and their interaction with Naval units is in 16, Naval operations. That is not scattered around, but well organized.


The rules do state, early on, to read them once for a general overview and then a second time for clarity. Lots of stuff relies on later rules to make full sense.


 
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Another note:

It is obviously pointless to assign a hit to a fleet unless doing so will cause it to abort its mission.

So, in a naval escort, you want to assign damage to shipped units.

The fleet will have to roll for losses no matter what happens after every mission.
 
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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Sorry but I'm afraid that is disingenuous. For example the word 'hit' is defined nowhere and appears precisely twice in the rules, once in the Naval Strike table, and once in a scenario-specific rule on p.27.

In this case the rules need an additional sentence at section 15.6A saying something like 'Each hit results in a step loss to land units in the shipping box, or if applied to naval units, damages them and requires a roll on the Air & Naval Losses table'.

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David Brown
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Re: Surely this game is broken
I feel like the rules are like someone has just given me a load of feathers and expects me to make duck out of them.

 
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John Middleton
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Re: Surely this game is broken
It's clear to me and many others playing.


All I can say is that if you lay out the game and start playing, it all falls into place pretty easily. You look up specific weird things as they occur.


When a fleet is being attacked, the circumstances and outcomes are readily apparent on the map.


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Gabriel Conroy
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Re: Surely this game is broken
Fair enough I guess. I'm going to keep ploughing on with it anyway - thanks again for the help.
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