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Subject: Firewood Collector (and similar cards, if any) rss

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David Williams
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This says you get 1 wood at the end of the round for using certain action spaces. But the wording is a bit odd (lists 4 spaces then says 'action space' singular) and you get 1 wood 'at the end of the round'.

If you visit more than 1 of those spaces, do you get the 1 wood for each, or just once?

If this is in the rules I couldn't find it - if I missed it, please let me know where so I can find it for future reference.

Thanks.
 
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Geoff Burkman
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It says "Each time..." My pal, Ron, and I have interpreted that to mean that you get one wood for each and every time you use one of those spaces. Thus, if you were able to manage to take a grain, then plow a field, and then sow that field (via Grain Utilization), you would receive a total of three wood at the end of the Round.* I honestly can't see any other way to interpret "each time."

*I don't remember precisely how the revised rules define a "turn." We figured the end of the Round was good enough.

You're right, though, the card needs official clarification.
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David Williams
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Yeah - it seems to me like it's an edited version but they didn't update the language. For example, it used to just refer to a single action space, in which case the wording was perfect. So they re-balanced it by adding more spaces but forgot to update the language accordingly.

Hence it is still 'action space' singular and states 'get 1 wood at the end of the round' rather than clarifying one way or the other.

Do Mayfair Games usually keep watch on these forums? I believe I have seen their reps posting here. Or do we submit a query directly to them?

We played it as 1 wood max btw - and I still got 55 points. Not sure if we did something wrong or if it was just a very non-confrontational game since we are newbies. In this game (our first) I won by 15 points despite limiting it to 1 wood, so the card certainly helped 'enough'.
 
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Bastian Winkelhaus
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Orion3T wrote:
Yeah - it seems to me like it's an edited version but they didn't update the language. For example, it used to just refer to a single action space, in which case the wording was perfect. So they re-balanced it by adding more spaces but forgot to update the language accordingly.

Hence it is still 'action space' singular and states 'get 1 wood at the end of the round' rather than clarifying one way or the other.


I call BS on that. As far as i know, the card says turn, not round.

See here:


To answer your original question: You get 1 wood "each time" you use one of the mentioned action spaces. That means you can get more then 1 wood from this card. In the whole game, in one round, even in one turn.

Also i am not a native english speaker, but the singular of space looks just fine to me.
"Each time you buy a cheese or bacon sandwiches, you get a free drink with it."
That does not make sense, does it?
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Benjamin Wells Kerenza
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zlorfik wrote:

"Each time you buy a cheese or bacon sandwiches, you get a free drink with it."
That does not make sense, does it?


No but "Each time you buy cheese or bacon sandwiches, you get a free drink with it." does. I think the card makes as much sense with or without the plural, but then I'm not a literary connoisseur.

The last bit about at the end of the turn seems odd as seems to be the route of the confusion, why not straight away?
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David Williams
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zlorfik wrote:
I call BS on that. As far as i know, the card says turn, not round.


Happy to be corrected - you're right, I accidentally typed round instead of turn, but that doesn't really affect the question.

As an aside, 'call BS on that' could be taken as somewhat confrontational and accusatory, which is really not required here as I'm not being argumentative, it was just a typo. I would imagine you didn't mean it that way, I'm just pointing this out for your info.

Quote:
To answer your original question: You get 1 wood "each time" you use one of the mentioned action spaces. That means you can get more then 1 wood from this card. In the whole game, in one round, even in one turn.


I'd agree it implies that, but it's not entirely without interpretation because of the way the rest of the sentence is worded.

Quote:
Also i am not a native english speaker, but the singular of space looks just fine to me.
"Each time you buy a cheese or bacon sandwiches, you get a free drink with it."
That does not make sense, does it?


You're right, that is not grammatically correct. But it's because you replaced 'the' (which is neither plural nor singular) with 'a' which is singular. Same for adding 'it' at the end which is also singular. So you added other singular words to the phrase, thus only singular can be correct for the noun. A sentence more like the one on the card is:

"Each time you buy the cheese or bacon sandwiches, you get 1 free drink."

Which I believe is grammatically correct (though the plural could imply there are multiple sandwiches of each type). To make it like the card would be:

"Each time you buy the cheese or bacon sandwich, you get 1 free drink at the end of your meal."

As per the card, I cannot honestly say this is grammatically incorrect. It's definitely not a wording I would choose if I wanted to be unambiguous. The reason is that I think it implies either a) There is only 1 of each type of sandwich (which is true for the action spaces, I think). Or b) Only one of the sandwiches can grant the free drink at the end of the meal, because otherwise you're actually getting 2 free drinks at the end of your meal.

Not saying you're wrong though - if I had to bet I'd say it can apply multiple times per round. But I didn't want to cheat against my wife and since she always defers to my judgement I decided it only counted until we got official clarification.
 
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Harold Coleman
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I think there is a pretty clear distinction between a "round" and a player "turn" in the rules. A round is mentioned in multiple places, such as in the General Overview at the top of page 4, as consisting of several phases including the action phase. This is also where it mentions, "In clockwise order, you take turns..."

So back to the Firewood Collector... it says each time you take one of the four listed actions, at the end of that turn, you get 1 wood. I think this cannot be interpreted in any other manner - you get a wood in addition to a grain if you do the Grain Seeds action, you get a wood in addition to plowing a field with the Farmland action, etc. I think the rest of the precise wording is to prevent you from getting more than one wood when doing multiple actions in one turn as some occupations might allow. Thus, I DO believe you get a wood each turn when you use one or more of the listed action spaces.
 
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David Williams
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hgcoleman wrote:
I think there is a pretty clear distinction between a "round" and a player "turn" in the rules. A round is mentioned in multiple places, such as in the General Overview at the top of page 4, as consisting of several phases including the action phase. This is also where it mentions, "In clockwise order, you take turns..."


Nobody is disputing that. I typed the wrong word by mistake. (EDIT - My apologies here, I totally missed the point you were making, which is that I have been conflating 'turn' with 'round' without realising it.

Quote:
So back to the Firewood Collector... it says each time you take one of the four listed actions, at the end of that turn, you get 1 wood. I think this cannot be interpreted in any other manner


As Benjamin suggests above, it's the fact it emphasises '1 wood at the end of your turn', and the singular use to me is also suggestive that whoever wrote the card was thinking only one action space would be used/count.

If you take 3 of those actions and get 1 wood for each, then you are not getting 1 wood at the end of your turn; you are getting 3 wood at the end of your turn. I certainly concede that's not a strong case, but I do think it's a valid thing to wonder if that was the intent.

Also consider how easy it would have been to clarify one way or another, but they didn't.

Let me parse it this way:

Each time you (take one of actions X,Y,Z) you get 1 wood at the end of your turn.


To me this suggests that taking one of those actions fills the condition to get 1 wood, and the 'each time' refers to 'each round where you meet the condition stated by taking one of those actions'.

Quote:
I think the rest of the precise wording is to prevent you from getting more than one wood when doing multiple actions in one turn as some occupations might allow.


I don't see how it prevents this any more (or less) than it prevents you from getting multiple wood from using the different spaces. If 'each time' allows using multiple different spaces then it seems to me it must also allow multiple uses for the same action space.

I'm not saying you're wrong, in fact I do think your interpretation might be the most likely. I was merely hoping for official clarification, or someone to already know where official clarification had been given already.
 
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Harold Coleman
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I think you are getting way too hung up in interpreting the card in a manner that is not stated. To me it is very straight-forward. A "turn" is when you place a worker (or, rarely, more than one worker) to take an action(s). Period. Do we agree on that? If on my turn, I place a worker at one (or possibly more than one due to an occupation or improvement) of the 4 action spaces noted on the card, I also get one wood from the Firewood Collector. If during a round I have 3 workers and I manage to place them all, one per turn, on 3 of the 4 action space denoted by the card, I get 3 wood. I think the cards were designed to take out all ambiguity with this printing and the Firewood Collector does that in my thinking. I just don't see how it could be interpreted in any other manner.
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David Williams
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hgcoleman wrote:
I think you are getting way too hung up in interpreting the card in a manner that is not stated. To me it is very straight-forward. A "turn" is when you place a worker (or, rarely, more than one worker) to take an action(s). Period. Do we agree on that? If on my turn, I place a worker at one (or possibly more than one due to an occupation or improvement) of the 4 action spaces noted on the card, I also get one wood from the Firewood Collector. If during a round I have 3 workers and I manage to place them all, one per turn, on 3 of the 4 action space denoted by the card, I get 3 wood. I think the cards were designed to take out all ambiguity with this printing and the Firewood Collector does that in my thinking. I just don't see how it could be interpreted in any other manner.


Oh dear... I see the problem now. Doh!

You are right - I was thinking a 'turn' means when you have taken all your actions, which of course in this game it is not because you 'take it in turns' to place a worker. In other games you might get multiple actions on 'your turn' and a round is when everyone has taken 1 turn. My wife and I also often play War of the Ring, where there is a 'game turn' which means when all the phases have been completed have been taken, and one of the phases involves players taking turns to spend action dice (so the Game Turn is like a Round in Agricola).

I don't see the word 'turn' being rigorously defined in the rules, but you are right that it's used to say you 'take turns' so that's definitely the best interpretation of what it means. So in this game you get multiple turns per round. Not that alien but I did get it confused. So we had been giving the wood at the end of the round, during replenishment, hence the confusion.

And that does indeed make it very clear that you can get 1 wood per turn, resulting in multiple wood per round.

Now that's out of the way, it actually seems you do agree with the idea that the card limits players to 1 wood per turn, even if they somehow placed multiple workers on that turn. Which is the same interpretation I was asking about, but applied to a single turn and not a round.

Thanks very much for your patience in helping me get to the bottom of this!
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David Williams
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bjwells wrote:
[q="zlorfik"]The last bit about at the end of the turn seems odd as seems to be the route of the confusion, why not straight away?


And now I realise my confusion, this comment makes much more sense. Why doesn't it simply say to take 1 wood when you take that action? I think that's what most of the other cards do.

Only reason seems to be if the intent was indeed to limit it to 1 per turn (and I do mean turn now, not round). Which would actually mean my puzzlement over the singulars seems correct (max of 1 wood per turn, even if you somehow placed multiple workers) albeit I was applying it to a round by mistake and not a turn.

And after all that, it's still an odd way to word it when they could have just stated 'once per turn....' at the beginning.
 
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Bastian Winkelhaus
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Orion3T wrote:

Oh dear... I see the problem now. Doh!

You are right - I was thinking a 'turn' means when you have taken all your actions, which of course in this game it is not because you 'take it in turns' to place a worker. In other games you might get multiple actions on 'your turn' and a round is when everyone has taken 1 turn. My wife and I also often play War of the Ring, where there is a 'game turn' which means when all the phases have been completed have been taken, and one of the phases involves players taking turns to spend action dice (so the Game Turn is like a Round in Agricola).

I don't see the word 'turn' being rigorously defined in the rules, but you are right that it's used to say you 'take turns' so that's definitely the best interpretation of what it means. So in this game you get multiple turns per round. Not that alien but I did get it confused. So we had been giving the wood at the end of the round, during replenishment, hence the confusion.

And that does indeed make it very clear that you can get 1 wood per turn, resulting in multiple wood per round.

Now that's out of the way, it actually seems you do agree with the idea that the card limits players to 1 wood per turn, even if they somehow placed multiple workers on that turn. Which is the same interpretation I was asking about, but applied to a single turn and not a round.

Thanks very much for your patience in helping me get to the bottom of this!


1. for the definition of "turn", look into the glossary under "Action, person's action" on page 4.
2. The term "at the end of that turn" is used to tell you when you get the wood. I agree that this is confusing here because the actions mentioned do not need wood. The term would make more sense if, for example, one of the actions mentioned would be the "Fences" action. In that case it would make it clear that you cannot use the wood from this card while building the fences. Why Uwe used the clause on this card, i do not know.
3. If you were able to use 2 of those action spaces in the same turn (for example with the old card "Joy House" from the Netherlands deck), you would get 2 wood at the end of that turn.
4. Replenishment does not happen at the end of a round, it happens at the beginning (of the next round).
5. I apologize for using the BS wording, it was probably too strong. Nonetheless it would be very helpful if people that have a rules question on a card post the exact text of the card with their question. Yours was just the latest of a bunch of questions i saw over the times where that is not the case, which does make it harder to answer the question.
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David Williams
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zlorfik wrote:
1. for the definition of "turn", look into the glossary under "Action, person's action" on page 4.


Thanks for that - good to know! In my defense for not being able to find this myself, I think placing the definition of a term within the definition of another term isn't exactly ideal.

As an aside, I have found the Appendix mostly useless so far because everything I tried to look up I either could not find, or it referred me to a page on the Rules book which did not answer my question. This is another example - if I want to know the definition of 'turn' I must first look at 'Players and people' and then 'Action'.

As someone who has little trouble deciphering the rules for far more complex games, I'm inclined to think this isn't just me being stupid (though that does happen occasionally!. But perhaps I haven't given them as much attention as they need because I thought the game looked relatively straightforward.

Quote:
2. The term "at the end of that turn" is used to tell you when you get the wood. I agree that this is confusing here because the actions mentioned do not need wood. The term would make more sense if, for example, one of the actions mentioned would be the "Fences" action. In that case it would make it clear that you cannot use the wood from this card while building the fences. Why Uwe used the clause on this card, i do not know.


Agreed, it doesn't make sense to me to word it this way except to use the interpretation Harold seems to endorse above. I think this also contributed to our confusion.

Quote:
3. If you were able to use 2 of those action spaces in the same turn (for example with the old card "Joy House" from the Netherlands deck), you would get 2 wood at the end of that turn.


[SNIP - removed comments on use of plural/singular]

EDIT - I have now seen a convincing argument that since there is only 1 of each action space, the singular term is correct in this case. So while I think this is a subtlety and something many people aren't clear on (myself included apparently) I concede that point, the singular use doesn't imply what I thought it might. It's just the 'at the end of that turn' ruling which is a bit strange, and it seems we agree on that.

That said, you and Harold seem to disagree. Since I don't know if either of you is an authority on the matter, I don't know who is right on that point.

Quote:
4. Replenishment does not happen at the end of a round, it happens at the beginning (of the next round).


Yeah, I do understand that but phrased it poorly; what I was actually doing was putting it on the card and taking it off the card before we replenished (or at the same time). Either way, I now know we were wrong!

Quote:
5. I apologize for using the BS wording, it was probably too strong. Nonetheless it would be very helpful if people that have a rules question on a card post the exact text of the card with their question. Yours was just the latest of a bunch of questions i saw over the times where that is not the case, which does make it harder to answer the question.


No worries on the BS comment; it maybe didn't give the best impression and led to me missing the point of what you were trying to say, but I don't take it personally.

Sadly I didn't have the card available when I had chance to ask. I apologise for that and realise it's not ideal; on games I'm familiar with I much prefer it when people include the text, but am also happy to check if they don't. But I thought a lot of people would have the card to hand and be able to check if they weren't sure.

Anyway, I think this was a simple misunderstanding really. When we read the card we misunderstood 'end of that turn' (and actually the word 'that' rather than 'your' may have contributed to our confusion) to mean end of the round (or players last turn). Since I was going from memory I typed the word 'round' as that was how we had interpreted the card.

So the simple answer was:

"It's not at the end of the round, it's the end of that player's turn (after they finish taking the action). So in general you can get 1 wood per action."

I'm still curious about whether this is limited to once per turn or not, but since it seems there are no cards in this version which would make that relevant, I am not going to worry about it.

Thanks again to everyone for your responses, I do appreciate it!
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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In each turn, you can get at most 1 wood by using any of the mentioned action spaces. If another effect allowed you to use multiple action spaces during the same turn, you would only get a single wood at the end of that turn, even if you managed to use multiple of the mentioned action spaces.

Reminder: A turn usually ends after placing a person on an action space. There are some effects though that allow you to place more than one person on a turn.



Edit: I was using "actions" instead of "action spaces" in this post. I corrected that. It's so easy to confuse one with the other.
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David Williams
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Ponton wrote:
In each turn, you can get at most 1 wood by taking any of the mentioned actions. If another effect would allow you to take multiple actions during the same turn, you would only get a single wood at the end of that turn, even if you managed to take multiple of the mentioned actions.

Reminder: A turn usually ends after placing a person on an action space. There are some effects though that allow you to place more than one person on a turn.


Great! Thanks for the clarification Grzegorz.
 
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Follow-up:

I've contacted Uwe about this card to be perfectly sure that I got it right. Uwe confirms what I said, and he adds the following clarification: if another card grants you multiple turns one after another, in each such turn, you would get 1 wood, if you took any of the mentioned actions. It's only 1 wood if you take multiple of these action spaces on the SAME turn.

I hope this helps.
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Geoff Burkman
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So, just to confirm, you get the 1Wood immediately after taking the relevant action (i.e. at the end of that turn, not at the end of the Round), correct?
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Grzegorz Kobiela
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Correct. Uwe just wrote me another follow-up: placing one person = one turn.
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