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Subject: Controversial gun law went into effect in CT today. rss

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Jon Badolato
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http://www.nhregister.com/general-news/20160930/new-connecti...

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Sean Conroy
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Oppressor 2: "I dunno, can we take their stuff?"

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Oppressor 2: "We helped"
 
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non sequitur
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Hm, interesting.

I don't suspect this will work terribly well.

I care only a little for the temporary rights of people who have a restraining order placed against them.

This may affect gun violence levels in domestic disputes? But I kinda doubt it.

If it DOES noticeably decrease domestic violence, then a temporary firearm surrender period sounds fairly reasonable going forward. That is to say solely based on that I believe (perhaps falsely) that you need to have committed harassment or another criminal act to be subjected to a restraining order.

I think this is controversial because "they're taking our guns awaywa!!!" but I really don't care about your ~right to shoot your ex-spouse the week they're running away from you.

If it doesn't have any effect on domestic violence post-separation after a few years they may as well repeal it, though. We should really only enforce stuff that decreases violence, not that theoretically decreases violence.

But we don't live in an empirical society on so many of these issues.

EDIT: As per below, my premise is flawed. So it goes!
 
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Mike Stiles
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I know of some people who have tried to put restraining orders invalidly on others for harassment or 'keep control of the kids' reasons, but the cases I know of didn't particularly stick.
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Boaty McBoatface
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I ha e to say that making this dependent on just restraining orders seems a bit too wide.

I cannot see "where there is a threat or danger" would not be sufficient.
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The bar for obtaining a restraining order is set pretty low by design. All the claimant has to do is demonstrate fear of bodily harm. In many cases, that fear is well-founded, which is why the bar is set so low. The courts would rather err on the side of safety, and that's fine by me because generally the order only restricts contact or proximity with a particular person. If your actions are being curtailed, it's a minor curtailment at worst (unless it also involves your kids).

Start adding automatic consequences like this and I'm much less in favor of setting the bar low. If nothing else, there should be another hearing, with higher standards of proof, to determine if seizing a person's property is appropriate given the situation.

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rekinom
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In CT, it takes about 8 weeks to get your carry permit.

Do you think the people in favor of this law would also be in favor of a law that fast tracked carry permits for the abused partners who have requested the restraining orders?
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Kelsey Rinella
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rekinom wrote:
In CT, it takes about 8 weeks to get your carry permit.

Do you think the people in favor of this law would also be in favor of a law that fast tracked carry permits for the abused partners who have requested the restraining orders?


That's a good question, but I think that most people who support gun control also think see private shootouts as a poor method of resolving disputes. I suspect they'd be much more supportive of state-provided pepper spray or the like.
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Jon Badolato
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Agreed. I would rather not see gun permits fast tracked for anyone. In general the solution to this type of problem does not lie in arming the abused, but in disarming the abuser. Time will tell if this has any impact, but if it saves even a few lives it will have been worth the small price paid.
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rekinom
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jonb wrote:
Agreed. I would rather not see gun permits fast tracked for anyone. In general the solution to this type of problem does not lie in arming the abused, but in disarming the abuser. Time will tell if this has any impact, but if it saves even a few lives it will have been worth the small price paid.


Most respondents will have already lost their 2A rights due to their prior criminal history, so I expect these laws will have little effect.

I would rather see people who want to be empowered to defend themselves have the opportunity to do so in a timely manner. I am disgusted by the story of Carol Bowne, who was stabbed to death in her own driveway while waiting for NJ to grant her a gun permit. Her restraining order did not prevent her murder.

If there is no due process baked into this law, the small price you mention will be the continued erosion of 4th and 5th Amendment civil liberties. While I am not generally sympathetic to people who have restraining orders filed against them, I don't see that as a small price.
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Jon Badolato
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Quote:
ho want to be empowered to defend themselves have the opportunity to do so in a timely manner. I am disgusted by the story of Carol Bowne, who was stabbed to death in her own driveway while waiting for NJ to grant her a gun permit. Her re


Before seeing more people armed I'd prefer to see statistics on how often an abused person has actually used a gun to fend off or stop being abused by someone close to them. I suspect the numbers there are low compared to the number being abused. Personally I'm ok with the government confiscating the weapon of someone who has a restraining order and who may have shown threatining behavior or who has actually abused their partner.

The fourth amendment concerns unreasonable searches and seizures. If someone has physically abused their partner or has made known threats then I don't consider the confiscation of their gun an unreasonable seizure. In fact it would be quite rational. Sadly, with the easy availability of guns in this country it might indeed not be effective, but it's worth the try.

The fifth amendment has to do with due process. I think there should ideally be quick procedures to determine if credible reason exists to confiscate a gun but if the determination is made that there is good reason to do so, then I have no problem with it.

 
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Boaty McBoatface
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jonb wrote:
Quote:
ho want to be empowered to defend themselves have the opportunity to do so in a timely manner. I am disgusted by the story of Carol Bowne, who was stabbed to death in her own driveway while waiting for NJ to grant her a gun permit. Her re


Before seeing more people armed I'd prefer to see statistics on how often an abused person has actually used a gun to fend off or stop being abused by someone close to them. I suspect the numbers there are low compared to the number being abused. Personally I'm ok with the government confiscating the weapon of someone who has a restraining order and who may have shown threatining behavior or who has actually abused their partner.

The fourth amendment concerns unreasonable searches and seizures. If someone has physically abused their partner or has made known threats then I don't consider the confiscation of their gun an unreasonable seizure. In fact it would be quite rational. Sadly, with the easy availability of guns in this country it might indeed not be effective, but it's worth the try.

The fifth amendment has to do with due process. I think there should ideally be quick procedures to determine if credible reason exists to confiscate a gun but if the determination is made that there is good reason to do so, then I have no problem with it.

I would like to see a comparison between the number used in defence, as opposed to the number against whom a firearm was used (even if only to intimidate).
 
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Michael Carter
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rekinom wrote:
In CT, it takes about 8 weeks to get your carry permit.

Do you think the people in favor of this law would also be in favor of a law that fast tracked carry permits for the abused partners who have requested the restraining orders?


8 weeks? Wow. Here you can sign up for a class this week, take the class and after the class take your certificate to the Sheriff's office, pay the $60 and you now have a carry permit.
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rekinom
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mlcarter815 wrote:
rekinom wrote:
In CT, it takes about 8 weeks to get your carry permit.

Do you think the people in favor of this law would also be in favor of a law that fast tracked carry permits for the abused partners who have requested the restraining orders?


8 weeks? Wow. Here you can sign up for a class this week, take the class and after the class take your certificate to the Sheriff's office, pay the $60 and you now have a carry permit.


It took me about six months in rural NY, after $100, fingerprints, background check, a firearms class, four character references from people living within the county, and a deputy sheriff visiting my home and interviewing me, asking me if I ever used drugs or committed domestic violence. The deputy sheriff was one my former students.
 
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rekinom
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slatersteven wrote:
I would like to see a comparison between the number used in defence, as opposed to the number against whom a firearm was used (even if only to intimidate).


I don't know if those numbers exist. And how do you structure the research? Do you eliminate the majority of events where the murderer suspect already had a criminal history and wouldn't legally have access to a gun to begin with? These laws wouldn't have an effect on people already barred from owning guns.

Outside of domestic violence, the numbers are thought to be equal.

This is from the CDC report that Obama ordered in 2013:

Defensive use of guns by crime victims is a common occurrence, although the exact number remains disputed (Cook and Ludwig, 1996; Kleck, 2001a). Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million (Kleck, 2001a), in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008 (BJS, 2010). On the other hand, some scholars point to a radically lower estimate of only 108,000 annual defensive uses based on the National Crime Victimization Survey (Cook et al., 1997). The variation in these numbers remains a controversy in the field. The estimate of 3 million defensive uses per year is based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys. The former estimate of 108,000 is difficult to interpret because respondents were not asked specifically about defensive gun use.

A different issue is whether defensive uses of guns, however numerous or rare they may be, are effective in preventing injury to the gun-wielding crime victim. Studies that directly assessed the effect of actual defensive uses of guns (i.e., incidents in which a gun was “used” by the crime victim in the sense of attacking or threatening an offender) have found consistently lower injury rates among gun-using crime victims compared with victims who used other self-protective strategies (Kleck, 1988; Kleck and DeLone, 1993; Southwick, 2000; Tark and Kleck, 2004). Effectiveness of defensive tactics, however, is likely to vary across types of victims, types of offenders, and circumstances of the crime, so further research is needed both to explore these contingencies and to confirm or discount earlier findings.


As an aside, I have a coworker who had an issue with child services. He left his 8 year old in the car while running into a store. Cops came to his house and confiscated his handguns, which were registered, but left all his long guns. He pointed out the long guns to the cops, and they said they weren't taking anything they weren't required to take. The handguns were returned when the charges were dropped.

edit: murderer -> suspect
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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About 35 years ago, a police officer spoke in my high school. He told us the two best ways to avoid becoming a crime victim.

1. Scream
2. Run

The mugger or assaulter knows he is doing something illegal, and is probably pretty nervous. Screaming or running is very likely (I would guess 80+ %) to cause the would be criminal to chicken out.

The above tactics are riskier if the criminal has a gun pointed at you. Which is why we need to reduce the number of guns out there. Fewer guns out there is a better solution than a bunch of bad guys and good guys shooting it out.

rekinom wrote:

It took me about six months in rural NY, after $100, fingerprints, background check, a firearms class, four character references from people living within the county, and a deputy sheriff visiting my home and interviewing me, asking me if I ever used drugs or committed domestic violence. The deputy sheriff was one my former students.


After going through that, you have demonstrated to society that you can be trusted with a gun. Therefore, I am glad you have one. You did the right thing by going through the legal process.

I am also glad that New York State is doing its job, and making sure that dangerous people don't get guns. Too bad some other states don't do the same.
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rekinom
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MikePustilnik wrote:
I am also glad that New York State is doing its job, and making sure that dangerous people don't get guns.


Hah!

Looking at the three largest upstate cities...

Buffalo had a per-capita homicide rate in 2014 (23.2) which was worse than Chicago (15.1), Oakland (19.5), and Miami (19.2). #6 in the nation for cities with at least 250,000 people.

Rochester was pretty bad (19.5 in 2015) and Syracuse wasn't fantastic either (14.5 in 2015).

Good job, NY! Way to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.
 
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Michael Carter
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rekinom wrote:
mlcarter815 wrote:
rekinom wrote:
In CT, it takes about 8 weeks to get your carry permit.

Do you think the people in favor of this law would also be in favor of a law that fast tracked carry permits for the abused partners who have requested the restraining orders?


8 weeks? Wow. Here you can sign up for a class this week, take the class and after the class take your certificate to the Sheriff's office, pay the $60 and you now have a carry permit.


It took me about six months in rural NY, after $100, fingerprints, background check, a firearms class, four character references from people living within the county, and a deputy sheriff visiting my home and interviewing me, asking me if I ever used drugs or committed domestic violence. The deputy sheriff was one my former students.


That's fucking absurd.
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Michael Pustilnik
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rekinom wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:
I am also glad that New York State is doing its job, and making sure that dangerous people don't get guns.


Hah!

Looking at the three largest upstate cities...

Buffalo had a per-capita homicide rate in 2014 (23.2) which was worse than Chicago (15.1), Oakland (19.5), and Miami (19.2). #6 in the nation for cities with at least 250,000 people.

Rochester was pretty bad (19.5 in 2015) and Syracuse wasn't fantastic either (14.5 in 2015).

Good job, NY! Way to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.


Many of those guns were bought in states with lax gun laws and transported to New York State. Do you really think that thugs with criminal records could successfully go through the legal process that you did?
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jonb wrote:


I have additional issues with this because I learned recently that restraining orders can be issued preemptively by aggressive prosecutors even AGAINST the will of people who are the supposed victims.
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Michael Carter
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MikePustilnik wrote:
rekinom wrote:
MikePustilnik wrote:
I am also glad that New York State is doing its job, and making sure that dangerous people don't get guns.


Hah!

Looking at the three largest upstate cities...

Buffalo had a per-capita homicide rate in 2014 (23.2) which was worse than Chicago (15.1), Oakland (19.5), and Miami (19.2). #6 in the nation for cities with at least 250,000 people.

Rochester was pretty bad (19.5 in 2015) and Syracuse wasn't fantastic either (14.5 in 2015).

Good job, NY! Way to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people.


Many of those guns were bought in states with lax gun laws and transported to New York State. Do you really think that thugs with criminal records could successfully go through the legal process that you did?


Even Iowa requires you to not have a criminal record when applying for a carry permit, but it doesn't take 8 weeks.
 
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Michael Pustilnik
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mlcarter815 wrote:

Even Iowa requires you to not have a criminal record when applying for a carry permit, but it doesn't take 8 weeks.


Owning and carrying a gun is protected by the second amendment. Getting a gun quickly and conveniently is not. 8 weeks seems about right to me. It could save lives by providing a cooling off period for someone out to get revenge. Given time to think things over, the wronged man or woman will usually come to the conclusion that risking a long prison sentence for the sake of revenge isn't actually a good decision.

Gun violence is such a horrific plague in the United States that it should not be easy or convenient to get guns or have the right to carry guns. What we need are national laws similar to the New York State laws.
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J
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Meerkat wrote:
jonb wrote:


I have additional issues with this because I learned recently that restraining orders can be issued preemptively by aggressive prosecutors even AGAINST the will of people who are the supposed victims.

Issued or requested? If they can do it without a Judge, then I think that's wrong.
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rekinom
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MikePustilnik wrote:
Many of those guns were bought in states with lax gun laws and transported to New York State.


According to the ATF...

More traced guns originated from within NY state (1397 in 2014) than from any other single state. The next highest source was Virginia (395).

More importantly, most guns (80%) were used in a crime more than three years after their purchase, with the average time-to-crime length being 14.8 years. So yeah, transported into NY state and used in a crime an average of 15 years later!

Man, these gun smugglers sure do play a long game. Or, maybe Bloomberg is full of crap.

Guns are durable. If they are taken care of, they can last for centuries. In gangs, guns are often also communal property, so one gun can be responsible for a lot of crimes by a lot of different criminals.

MikePustilnik wrote:
Do you really think that thugs with criminal records could successfully go through the legal process that you did?

That's my point. Why does NY state harass legal gun owners when we aren't the problem?

It's like a reverse pareto principle.

How about we go after the criminals instead?
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Jon Badolato
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Meerkat wrote:
jonb wrote:


I have additional issues with this because I learned recently that restraining orders can be issued preemptively by aggressive prosecutors even AGAINST the will of people who are the supposed victims.


Do you have any examples of this. Although I could see why abused might not want to make it known that they have sought a restraining order on someone as it makes them an even bigger target of their wrath.
 
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