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Subject: How do "Expose" markers work? Specifically the "Push" marker rss

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Jeff M
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Still unclear as to how these are supposed to work.
From pg 19 in the rules;

"3) Push.

The push marker causes the target to be moved out of the current group to a new distant group. This effect always takes place before damage from attack effect is applied."

First off, what constitutes a "group"? Is one character all by itself considered a "group"?

If a character moves off to stand all by itself, is it considered to have moved "to a new distant group", or must it actually join up with at least one other character...or.... must it actually join with a "group" of characters (using the definition of "group" as "a number (ie, more than just one) of people or things that are together or in the same place")?

Next, "this effect always takes place before damage from attack effect is applied". So, if a target character is attacked by something whose attack states it is to attack an "adjacent" character, and one of the target's revealed "Expose Markers" is a "Push"...does the attack damage that the "adjacent" attack would have done no longer apply (as the target is now no longer "adjacent" to it's attacker?)

Last, when a character is "Pushed"..can they be moved to either stand off by themselves OR to another group? (And if a "SOLITARY" character is "Pushed", can it be moved to join a group...any group?)





 
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They call me Mister...
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It's been a while but as I remember it a character on its own is a group.

Yes, if a character goes to stand on its own it is forming a new distant group.

Yes, swing and a miss. Incorrect, see below

No, they must form a new distant group so will not join another group.

 
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Lowden025 wrote:


Next, "this effect always takes place before damage from attack effect is applied". So, if a target character is attacked by something whose attack states it is to attack an "adjacent" character, and one of the target's revealed "Expose Markers" is a "Push"...does the attack damage that the "adjacent" attack would have done no longer apply (as the target is now no longer "adjacent" to it's attacker?)


Actually the target takes damage. You can read further information with comments of the designer about this topic here and here.
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Jeff M
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Thanks all.
There obviously has been some confusion about this.
Enjoying the game. Not the ambiguities in the rules so much. shake

 
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Jeff M
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Ibbo wrote:
...

No, they must form a new distant group so will not join another group.



I don't believe this is correct.
From the FAQ's in the games BGG files;

TIP: Another example (of how PUSH works), with EXPLODING TOMATOES. I was trying to attack one of the Tomatoes, which had an expose marker. My MELEE attack was for enough damage to kill it, EXPOSE marker got consumed and it was a PUSH. So....my attack was strong enough not only to kill it, but also push it away. I moved the tomato to a new distant group, applied the damage and found out it was an Unstable Exploding Tomato so it also EXPLODED, but in this new distant group.

(Color emphasis is mine.)
 
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They call me Mister...
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So I've been wrong about the swing and a miss thing - damage still occurs but the push still happens first:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1257532/expose-marker-push-...

Lowden025 wrote:
Ibbo wrote:
...

No, they must form a new distant group so will not join another group.



I don't believe this is correct.
From the FAQ's in the games BGG files;

TIP: Another example (of how PUSH works), with EXPLODING TOMATOES. I was trying to attack one of the Tomatoes, which had an expose marker. My MELEE attack was for enough damage to kill it, EXPOSE marker got consumed and it was a PUSH. So....my attack was strong enough not only to kill it, but also push it away. I moved the tomato to a new distant group, applied the damage and found out it was an Unstable Exploding Tomato so it also EXPLODED, but in this new distant group.

(Color emphasis is mine.)


I could still be wrong but I still read this as a NEW distant group (i.e. empty) - and I think this thread says that a new group is an empty group:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1543292/push-distant-group
 
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Jarad Bond
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Ibbo wrote:
So I've been wrong about the swing and a miss thing - damage still occurs but the push still happens first:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1257532/expose-marker-push-...

Lowden025 wrote:
Ibbo wrote:
...

No, they must form a new distant group so will not join another group.



I don't believe this is correct.
From the FAQ's in the games BGG files;

TIP: Another example (of how PUSH works), with EXPLODING TOMATOES. I was trying to attack one of the Tomatoes, which had an expose marker. My MELEE attack was for enough damage to kill it, EXPOSE marker got consumed and it was a PUSH. So....my attack was strong enough not only to kill it, but also push it away. I moved the tomato to a new distant group, applied the damage and found out it was an Unstable Exploding Tomato so it also EXPLODED, but in this new distant group.

(Color emphasis is mine.)


I could still be wrong but I still read this as a NEW distant group (i.e. empty) - and I think this thread says that a new group is an empty group:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1543292/push-distant-group

(I think we are all saying the same thing here, but the example here is worth stating)

You would be correct. A new group implies that there are no other characters. Characters are always pushed to a place by themselves, unless you are playing with Doompocalypse, where the push rules are different.

However, the damage you dealt (even on adjacent attacks) still gets carried to the target even though you are no longer adjacent. The Exploding Tomato example was AWESOME. The next most relevant and comprehensive example I have found is in another thread in these forums, and has to do with Armored Skeletons.

Say you have 3 adjacent skeletons in your group, and you used an AoE melee adjacent target attack (slam?). Slam does damage and pushes (it works the same as if an expose is revealed as a push).

Skeleton: Armor = the number of other adjacent skeletons.
Slam: 2 damage and Push to all adjacent Enemies.

Attack resolution:

Skeleton 1: Armor 2 (2 adjacent skellies). 2 Damage - 2 Armor = 0 damage. Pushed. Deal 0 damage in its new, empty group.
Skeleton 2: Armor 1 (1 adjacent skellies). 2 Damage - 1 Armor = 1 damage. Pushed. Deal 1 damage in its new, empty group.
Skeleton 3: Armor 0 (0 adjacent skellies). 2 Damage - 0 Armor = 2 damage. Pushed. Deal 2 damage in its new, empty group.

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Jeff M
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I find the games use of the term "group" very confusing.
A "group", in my experience, is most often used to denote a "cluster" of MORE than one.

I don't say "Look at that group standing over there" when trying to point out a single person standing off by themselves.

It would be less confusing to call a character standing by itself/moving off by itself/pushed off by itself as "alone", "solitary", "by itself".
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Jarad Bond
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Lowden025 wrote:
I find the games use of the term "group" very confusing.
A "group", in my experience, is most often used to denote a "cluster" of MORE than one.

I don't say "Look at that group standing over there" when trying to point out a single person standing off by themselves.

It would be less confusing to call a character standing by itself/moving off by itself/pushed off by itself as "alone", "solitary", "by itself".

I would have to agree with you that the term group could be confusing. Mathematically, a group is simply a set. Sets can be empty, or they can have any number of elements at any given time. It is well defined, and I think that is what they try to do in the rulebook. I personally had no trouble grasping the concept, but I do enjoy mathematics, so I'm familiar with this concept already.

English is not mathematics, though, and most people are more familiar with English.

That said, I'm sure the simplest way to write a set of rules like these having a high degree of interaction is to carefully define "group", and then refer to it consistently throughout the game rules. You can then avoid having to say, "movement is when one token moves either by itself or in a group to a different group of tokens or becoming alone and can even be considered moving if it doesn't physically change places on the table (imagine walking to the other side of the field avoiding contact with any other skirmishers)".

No, instead you say, "a group is a set of tokens, and can even be a single token or no tokens at all. Movement is when one token moves from one group to another [possibly empty] group, even if it leaves a group by itself to form a new group by itself (imagine walking from yadda yadda...)"

Sorry if that is still confusing - I do agree that it isn't very intuitive. I was just trying to explain that it is cleaner when you define groups in the way that Doomrock does. It gets even more apparent when you try to include all those ideas on cards that trigger on with pushing and moving and distant and adjacent.

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