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Terraforming Mars» Forums » Rules

Subject: No more Ocean reserved tile locations? rss

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Ori Markovitch
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This is something that almost happened to us when we played yesterday.

The player board has 12 ocean tiles. The rules state that special cards can be placed wherever their condition is met.

Someone closed an ocean reserved tile using mining rights (I don't see anything that blocks it), I built a greenery on an ocean reserved tile using the protected valley, that is only built there, and some other player used the card that creates the gayser to block another ocean reserved tile.

At that point I said that:
A. The rules don't state what happens when we can't put an ocean tile on an ocean reserved location.
B. If we close another ocean reserved tile with something that is not an ocean, we'll have to rely on someone drawing the "artifical lake" card, that lets you put ocean on a non ocean reserved area.
C. I stated that it should be possible to block another ocean reserved tile.

I think that it's possible with the atomic bomb, or any other card that is ambigious enough on where to place it (like mining rights, that says that it should produce steel or titanium).

So, as I see the developers (You did an amazing job on the game! BTW) around here replying, I thought it's the best place to ask it:
Shouldn't there be an Errata that says you can place an ocean tile next to an existing ocean tile, if no ocean reserved location is left on the board?

You can always tell me that my mistake is that you can't build a special tile on a water reserved location unless stated otherwise, but the rules just say that special tiles are put according to the rules on the card.

As the only thing that let us finish the game is that we all want the global parameters to thrive, I can't imagine what would happen if one of the players was a troll, to play another special tile on ocean and keep artifical lake in his hand for the rest of the game.
 
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Leo Borg
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On page 5 in the rulebook it says

Quote:
There are areas reserved for ocean and specific cities, where no other tiles may be placed.


So I would say it's very clear that no other tiles may be placed. The only exception should be if it says on a card that it's okay to place the tile on a place reserved for ocean tiles, if there are any such card(?)

Later in the game I think it's quite common that the ocean places are all taken up though, so then you just can't play cards that places out ocean tiles.
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Tyler Gobe
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There are more oceans spots than ocean tiles. I haven't counted all the cards in the deck, but I would be surprised if it was possible to fill all the ocean spots before running out of ocean tiles. I don't think your scenario is possible
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Ori Markovitch
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swYck wrote:
On page 5 in the rulebook it says

Quote:
There are areas reserved for ocean and specific cities, where no other tiles may be placed.


So I would say it's very clear that no other tiles may be placed. The only exception should be if it says on a card that it's okay to place the tile on a place reserved for ocean tiles, if there are any such card(?)

Later in the game I think it's quite common that the ocean places are all taken up though, so then you just can't play cards that places out ocean tiles.


Couldn't find that on page 5 of the rule books, and in page 4 where they are described it just says that you can only put ocean tiles on them and not other tiles, which is then negated in special tiles area on page 5 by saying!

Quote:
Special tiles: Some cards allow you to place
special tiles. Any function or placement
restriction is described on the card. Place the
tile, and place a player marker on it.


So, there are at least 3 cards that can be put on ocean that are not ocean (I haven't gone through all to make sure, but there is the gayzer, the reserved forest, and I guess there is an underwater city too), and there are special tiles which placement rules are special like "mining rights", or "atomic bomb", which logically speaking, I can see someone throwing it on a water reserved tile.

Logically speaking, unless I am gravely mistaken, the situation where 4 ocean reserved locations are used for anything that is not water, is possible. That's why this should be addressed so people will not be left in the mercy of the guy with the artifical lake.
 
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Leo Borg
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Quote:
Couldn't find that on page 5 of the rule books, and in page 4 where they are described it just says that you can only put ocean tiles on them and not other tiles, which is then negated in special tiles area on page 5 by saying!


From the rulebook, page 5 (my underline).


I used the "Final English Rules" https://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/135533/final-english-rule... downloaded from here to check. I am not at home so can't check my rules in the game box.


Yes it's possible to use the action "standard projects" and build "Aquifer" and place ocean tiles that way also. This could hinder other players to use cards (I believe) to later place ocean tiles if they are all used up.

From page 10 in the rulebook (same file as above)
Quote:
4) Aquifer: For 18 M€ you get to place an ocean tile (you
also get 1 TR and collect any placement bonus for the tile,
see page 5).
 
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Leo Borg
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And I think also Jacob, the designer, answers most questions about placement in this thread: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23725477#23725477
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Ori Markovitch
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I don't get what the Aquifer has to do with it?

Saying that "There are areas reserved for ocean and specific cities, where no other tiles may be placed." is a misleading of the rules, as there are at least 2 cards that I mentioned (the geyzer and protected forest) which are not a city or an ocean and is to be placed only on an area reserved for ocean tiles.

Quote:
There are more oceans spots than ocean tiles. I haven't counted all the cards in the deck, but I would be surprised if it was possible to fill all the ocean spots before running out of ocean tiles. I don't think your scenario is possible


Again, at least 3 cards that can be put on ocean reserved areas (special, greenery, city). 12 ocean reserved areas. The only question is if I can nuke a ocean reserved area and I get to a scenario where 4 of the 12 ocean reserved areas are covered by something that is not an ocean.

There is also a question if Mining rights can be put on a ocean reserved areas, as the "*" marked special tiles can be placed according to their roles that go above other rules, so if Mining rights can be put on an ocean reserved area, that makes it 5 tiles possible to put on ocean reserved.

I can just go over the cards when I am home to count how many cards can be *for sure* built over ocean and how many can *sometimes* built over oceans, to make this clear.

If the answer is that neither nuke neither mining rights can be built over oceans, that solves it for now, I guess.
 
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Leo Borg
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Maybe we should ask the designer then?

Jacob Fryxelius
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Mark Price
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From the reserved spaces thread (my italics).

Lord_Aethan wrote:
Noctis City, Phobos Space Haven, and Ganymede Colony are reserved for the city tiles played by the cards with the respective names.
Blue areas are reserved for oceans. However, 3 cards place tiles on blue areas anyway: Mohole Area, Protected Valley, and Mangrove.
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Odyzeus Longbow
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mxprice wrote:
From the reserved spaces thread (my italics).

Lord_Aethan wrote:
Noctis City, Phobos Space Haven, and Ganymede Colony are reserved for the city tiles played by the cards with the respective names.
Blue areas are reserved for oceans. However, 3 cards place tiles on blue areas anyway: Mohole Area, Protected Valley, and Mangrove.


So that means it was counted before hand 9+3 = 12
No other tiles can be placed on oceans.
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Ori Markovitch
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So that actually answers it and we misplayed it by letting Mining Rights set on a water reserved area.

I forgot that we persume that corporations are belevolent in this game (like you can decide not to affect other corporations when targeting another player)
 
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Justin Schuber
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oridistor wrote:
So that actually answers it and we misplayed it by letting Mining Rights set on a water reserved area.


Ahhh, oops!!! I was playing that tile like that as well! whistle

Well in that case, hey Fryxelius siblings! Underwater Mining card in the expansion?
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Jacob Fryxelius
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The rules say only oceans may be placed on areas reserved for ocean, and only three cards specifically allow exception for this rule (as mentioned above).

Cheers!
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Jacob Fryxelius
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Neojames82 wrote:
oridistor wrote:
So that actually answers it and we misplayed it by letting Mining Rights set on a water reserved area.


Ahhh, oops!!! I was playing that tile like that as well! whistle

Well in that case, hey Fryxelius siblings! Underwater Mining card in the expansion?


Hehe. I have considered similar things already, the problem being that it will unavoidable raise many rules questions. We'll see...
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Bill Buchanan
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Fryxen wrote:
Neojames82 wrote:
oridistor wrote:
So that actually answers it and we misplayed it by letting Mining Rights set on a water reserved area.


Ahhh, oops!!! I was playing that tile like that as well! whistle

Well in that case, hey Fryxelius siblings! Underwater Mining card in the expansion?


Hehe. I have considered similar things already, the problem being that it will unavoidable raise many rules questions. We'll see...


Clearly the solution is tiles can stack on top of each other!!!
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Sebastian Stückl
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Fryxen wrote:
Neojames82 wrote:
oridistor wrote:
So that actually answers it and we misplayed it by letting Mining Rights set on a water reserved area.


Ahhh, oops!!! I was playing that tile like that as well! whistle

Well in that case, hey Fryxelius siblings! Underwater Mining card in the expansion?


Hehe. I have considered similar things already, the problem being that it will unavoidable raise many rules questions. We'll see...


Just... add more cards that place tiles on non-ocean areas (and hope they aren't all blocked).
And make all hexes being blocked a game ending condition, just to make sure.

Or you expand Mars (...) to include more ocean tile areas. Space oceans perhaps.
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Matt Smith
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The way to process this out from a logic perspective is as follows:

The rulebook includes the following rules:
1. Only ocean tiles may be placed on blue spaces
2. Some cards have text that contradicts the rules. In these cases, the card is correct.

From just those two rules, you can conclude the only tiles that can be placed on blue spaces are:
- Ocean tiles
- Tiles placed by a card that explicitly states the tile may/must be placed on a blue space.

In the example of Mining Rights, the card doesn't say the special tile may be placed on a blue space. Therefore, rule #1 still applies to that special tile.
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Josh
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We also questioned if Mining Rights could be played on an ocean, and decided that it could based on the fact that there are ocean hexes with steel or titanium placement bonuses (i.e. the card text overrules the default rules). Oh well, from past experience I should know that if my group decides to interpret a rule uncertainty one way, we should then choose the opposite. I do appreciate the clarification.
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Steve Cohn
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JoshBot wrote:
from past experience I should know that if my group decides to interpret a rule uncertainty one way, we should then choose the opposite.


My group has run into similar questions in other games, often co-ops, so we have taken as our mantra a quip from the Eldritch Horror rules, which say something to this effect (paraphrasing): "If a rules question comes up, determine if the issue/effect/instance will benefit a player in any way. If it does, play it the other way."

So far, that seems to answer about 99% of them.
 
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Mark Biggar
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The analysis in this thread may need to consider the card "Artificial Lake" which allows you to place an ocean tile in a non-ocean spot.
 
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Esa Ryömä
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swYck wrote:
On page 5 in the rulebook it says
Later in the game I think it's quite common that the ocean places are all taken up though, so then you just can't play cards that places out ocean tiles.


I think this is mistaken. The common rule IS, that if you cannot completely do all the steps mentioned in a card, you cannot play it.
BUT
One of the exceptions to that was: You can play a card that would raise a global parameter (oxygen, temperature, ocean tile), even if that parameter is maxed out. Or am I mistaken?
Other exceptions were eg. you can play a card that gives you a special marker (microbe, animal...) even if you don't have a place to put that marker. You just don't get the marker then.
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