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Subject: Male Allyship - curing the toxic nature of men rss

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I have enjoyed the thread about that non-toxic guy with the black daughter proudly displaying how non-racist he is. But since the discussion evolved to a higher plane, one where Kuhrusty disses me and Lynnette demands I apologize for daring to doubt her intents, I figured this is a much more productive subject than whether or not some metrosexual with a kid has saved his daughter from a tragic life of feeling horrible about herself due to some random White Russian with a personal problem.

Anyway, getting down to it - here's what Lynnette said about the idea of Toxic Masculinity that I found interesting:

Quote:
So CLEARLY its original intent was not to blatantly denigrate half the humans on the planet. It wasn't to denigrate anybody... it was to help identify, discuss and correct a growing problem within society that a MAN thought was afflicting a small but still significant percentage of males growing up in our modern western culture.

Therefore MEN do not have to automatically distinguish that they don't belong to the small subgroup because NOBODY is assuming they do by default.

Now if you want to say that because the word has been co-opted by feminists in some highly visible forums it no longer is capable of servicing that function... well we could have that discussion. I would likely disagree with you since in the circles I run in it still serves its original purpose. However it would be POSSIBLE to convince me I am in error if I was presented with a convincing argument that showed my particular circle was so out of the mainstream we were ignorant of how poisoned a well that specific phrase had become. But that still would be a different discussion than the position you and Drew are asserting which is the term is inherently insulting to all men on its face. Because in English that just isn't accurate, adjectives modify the base word they are associated with to define a specific subset, they do NOT apply to the base universally.


* First off, she asserts that the term isn't denigrating because a man created it. Which is kind of like saying that if I call Lynnette a bitch it's bad because I'm a man, but if a woman calls her a bitch it can't be bad, or not as bad, because it was used by a woman. How about we just dispense with the idea that something coined by a man about men isn't automatically useful and good because it was a man.

* Nowhere have I read that the term only applies to some small subgroup. Nowhere. I have read probably 20 different articles and so-called *news* stories that directly address the term and small subgroup was never mentioned. What was mentioned though was that men (not a small portion) have an obligation to curb, control or learn to eliminate the toxic nature of their "masculinity".

Best case I could attribute Lynnette's defense of her point of view was her mention of her particular "circle". I take that to mean she has a small circle of like-minded friends who all agree with her.

* I also want to point out, to her, and the usual gang of RSP dickbags, that I am not going to apologize to anyone for a comment in RSP. I perceive her approach a certain way and I state it. She says otherwise, I disagree. The idea that anyone needs to apologize on the internet for interacting on the internet is insane and to me demonstrates the fragile and delicate nature of the egos that demand apologies for what amounts to normal, casual, everyday discussion.

Do you people all take your fucking Mommies and Daddies with you to work so the bad mens won't say upsetting things around you? How the hell does anyone learn anything if there isn't strong and aggressive debate and a concerted attack on the ideas you cling to? Fucking crybabies. Block me if you're that weak.

* Let's get back to my point, which Lynnette and the Dickbags disagree with - that when you add Toxic as an adjective to a word that describes half the humans on the planet it automatically creates an environment where men now are compelled to defend themselves and prove they, as men, are not the toxic sort. Lynnette claims that's not the case in her "circle", but it is clearly the case in the entire rest of the fucking world. But it's only evident to people who read or look outside their bubble.

For example, here's an article I saw just this morning, while taking my early morning toxic male constitutional -

US university offers course for men to 'deconstruct toxic masculinities'

So what? If this was the Devries campus in Buffalo or the Eastern Nebraska Bible College (The Fighting Apostles) then it'd be hardly worth a mention. But it's Duke. Yes, that Duke, the one that falsely sided with the ignorant and man-hating progressive bias that if a woman says it is so - then it is so. All men are toxic and the Duke Lacrosse team is proof of that. And for the younger group of dickbags here, the ones who 10 years ago were still searching for that first shaveable hair on their 8th grade chins - go read up on the Duke case. It's a classic example of how our current culture automatically assumes thew worst about a man or group of men who are accused by any woman. Any woman. Men are automatically assumed guilty and must sacrifice huge amounts of time, often their jobs or futures (see Duke again) and destroy their finances in order to prove they are NOT TOXIC.

And Duke is just one story. From a decade ago. The news cycle runs non-stop daily stories that assume from the outset that any man deemed toxic by accusers (usually females or perhaps a media that agrees) must now have his life essentially ruined in order to prove he is not the toxic variety. Wear the wrong collectible shirt to work -- where you just landed a fucking spaceship on a distant object object -- you're toxic. Fired!

And now we have a course, in a college, one that of all colleges ought to know better, that clearly assumes that masculinity itself is toxic and that men must learn... well, let me quote:

“We want to explore, dissect, and construct an intersectional understanding of masculinity and maleness, as well as to create destabilized spaces for those with privilege.”

Anyone who can read that with a straight face and assert it's not a blanket statement that masculinity is toxic is, I'm sorry, a fucking moron. But hey, let's continue - Lynnette, this one's for you and your small circle of not-very-well-informed friends:

“We also understand how masculinity in its normative form alienates most – if not all – men, and recognise the part normative masculinity plays in alienating men and reproducing violence.

Lynette is an educated woman and so are most of the RSP Dickbags. Duke isn't some rural community college and this is exactly what is seemingly the socially accepted norm in the current mode of our culture and the fact that I had to argue to try and prove what is just about as clear as a fucking bell tells me that despite the educated status of the RSP Dickbags & Lynnette, that you people are purposefully being obtuse and denying the reality because you don't want it to be that way. You guys bought into this whole Toxic Masculinity sham and you emotionally and intellectually invested yourselves in it and now you are fighting to keep it and say it's good. You're like that one guy I keep mentioning in RSP, the guy whose wife cheats on him every week and every week he says she's not really a cheater, she's just misunderstood.

If anyone ought to be apologized to it's me. But I'm the forgiving sort and no apologies are needed. It's enough for me to know you're wrong and I'm right.

Go Duke!
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Boaty McBoatface
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And this is what they mean.

To be a man you have to be vicious angry nasty and spiteful (and maybe white, hence white VANS man).

A man is someone who is not afraid, not someone who goes out of his way to be a cunt (yes I can use that word), we call them adolescents.

IN fact

FUCK CUNT ARSE NIPPLE BOLLOCKS SEMPRINI!

Is that manly enough or do I also have to insult you as well?

And the Duke was a draft dodging coward, but then he could kick a woman so that makes him a man I suppose.
 
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Funny. Tripp has spent years in RSP ridiculing men for being "pussies," "pansies," "wimps," and "girls," and suddenly he gets his tighty-whities all in a bunch when someone challenges his own special form of manliness.

Normally, I'd say "toxic masculininity" sums you up pretty well, Tripp, but in your case I think I can stop with simply "toxic."


DWTripp wrote:
Jesus! What a bunch of priggish panty-waisted girls you RSP Libtards are...


I hate what the world has become.... a public forum of victimization where the person acting like a fucking pussy is treated like a special snowflake.


https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/18761186#18761186
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cbazler wrote:
Funny. Tripp has spent years in RSP ridiculing men for being "pussies," "pansies," "wimps," and "girls," and suddenly he gets his tighty-whities all in a bunch when someone challenges his own special form of manliness.

Normally, I'd say "toxic masculininity" sums you up pretty well, Tripp, but in your case I think I can stop with simply "toxic."


DWTripp wrote:
Jesus! What a bunch of priggish panty-waisted girls you RSP Libtards are...


I hate what the world has become.... a public forum of victimization where the person acting like a fucking pussy is treated like a special snowflake.


https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/18761186#18761186


Translation - I have nothing to defend the OP's assertion and I'm too lazy or tribalized to actually look at it so... I'll just call him toxic and get some thumbs.
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DWTripp wrote:
Translation - I have nothing to defend the OP's assertion and I'm too lazy or tribalized to actually look at it so... I'll just call him toxic and get some thumbs.

I don't need to spend much effort to prove how totally off base you are. My point is that in the hundreds of times you have tried to shame men in RSP for not conforming to your own vision of masculinity, you have demonstrated perfectly why courses like the one you mentioned exist.

When men use "masculinity" as a stick with which to beat other men in order to prove the inferiority or weakness of others, or to hurt and shame them, it is a disgusting, abusive thing. And there are lots of men who do it all the time. You happen to be one of them.

That's what people mean when they refer to "toxic masculinity." They aren't saying all masculinity is toxic. They are saying it's toxic when men appeal to their own manliness in order to assert dominance and superiority over other men, and over women. It's the kind of behavior that fuels homophobia and sexism. And it's wrong. Period.
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http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

Quote:
It refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth.


ON a boardgame site I suspect that many men here have been subjected to bullying and harassment as not begin "macho" enough.

That is what toxic masculinity, that nasty (rugby club) like attitude that kicks the crap out of Geeks.
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"How the hell does anyone learn anything if there isn't strong and aggressive debate and a concerted attack on the ideas you cling to? "

Is fine until you start resorting to personal attacks and then it just demonstrates the weakness of the person making the attack.
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DWTripp wrote:


“We also understand how masculinity in its normative form alienates most – if not all – men, and recognise the part normative masculinity plays in alienating men and reproducing violence.



I loved reading this line on a forum in which posters have non-ironically self identified as alpha males while identifying others as beta males. Any possible self reflection for you on that specifically exemplifying the sorts of toxic male gender roles they are referring to here?
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I feel like I've come across quite a few people recently who don't seem to know how qualifying adjectives work.
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DWTripp wrote:



Translation - I have nothing to defend the OP's assertion and I'm too lazy or tribalized to actually look at it so... I'll just call him toxic and get some thumbs.


Well when you continually fire your gun into the ground does anyone really need to argue about how close to the target you got?
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Point of Order:


DWTripp wrote:
...
Lynnette demands I apologize for daring to doubt her intents,
...

* I also want to point out, to her, and the usual gang of RSP dickbags, that I am not going to apologize to anyone for a comment in RSP. I perceive her approach a certain way and I state it. She says otherwise, I disagree. The idea that anyone needs to apologize on the internet for interacting on the internet is insane and to me demonstrates the fragile and delicate nature of the egos that demand apologies for what amounts to normal, casual, everyday discussion.

...


I did not DEMAND an apology. I didn't even actually ASK for one.

Re: Monday in DC a man openly condemned my interracial family. Help me find balance.

Read our exchange again Tripp.

You said this:

DWTripp wrote:
Meerkat wrote:

As said I will honor the request to stop using it here. But as far as I am concerned all you have done is toss up additional roadblocks to effective communication on an important topic.



Seriously? Who requested you not use the term? I didn't and I reread Drew's posts here and he didn't. He said he didn't like it and explained his reasons. So did I. But by repeating that you'll "honor our request" but with the unspoken inference that it is an uninformed and invalid one is what I might think of as "toxic femininity": that point in a conversation where the toxic female trait takes over and passively/aggressively tries to give the appearance of conciliatory agreement while knowingly demeaning the others who disagree.


Then I quoted directly where Drew ASKED ME in no uncertain terms to stop using that term along with another phrase. I also pointed out how some other things you implied about me in that paragraph were in error.

And then I said:

Meerkat wrote:


Want to rethink this bit now and perhaps apologize?



Perhaps is not a DEMAND, Tripp.

That was a suggestion that since you were behaving like a jackass over something you had the facts wrong about, you might want to CONSIDER revising your behavior.

Fact: You were being a jerk toward me over something I didn't even DO.

Apologizing would have been the polite thing for you to do once that was clearly pointed out.

HOWEVER I don't even try to pressure people to go though meaningless motions. If you do not regret being a jackass toward me, I don't even want you to apologize. So I sure as hell am not going to try to demand you do so.

I think one of the reasons we are talking past each other is that I use very precise language and you don't pay much attention to word choice at all. Which results in you not only missing nuance within a long paragraph, but apparently you can actually misread entirely a single direct sentence.

I choose my words specifically to convey exactly what I meant to express. I picked the word PERHAPS and phrased the suggestion as a question for a REASON. That reason being I don't want a fake or pressured apology from somebody who doesn't think they did anything wrong.

If you don't see that you were both wrong on the facts and being a jackass to me erroneously ... than by all means Don't APOLOGIZE!


However if you do see that you were wrong on the facts and that this lead you to ascribing to me nasty motives and habits I was not guilty of than the polite and HONORABLE thing to do would have been to apologize. But even so, I did not and would not try to DEMAND you behave in a polite and honorable way. I did assume you would WANT to at least consider doing so because I thought that in general beneath that grumpy/gruff persona you tried to be an honorable man.

So I am not demanding you apologize even now for being a a jerk toward me. But I am ASKING for you to please stop COMPOUNDING your offenses by continuing to sling even more INACCURATE accusations at me.

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DWTripp wrote:

...

Anyway, getting down to it - here's what Lynnette said about the idea of Toxic Masculinity that I found interesting:

Meerkat wrote:
So CLEARLY its original intent was not to blatantly denigrate half the humans on the planet. It wasn't to denigrate anybody... it was to help identify, discuss and correct a growing problem within society that a MAN thought was afflicting a small but still significant percentage of males growing up in our modern western culture.

Therefore MEN do not have to automatically distinguish that they don't belong to the small subgroup because NOBODY is assuming they do by default.

Now if you want to say that because the word has been co-opted by feminists in some highly visible forums it no longer is capable of servicing that function... well we could have that discussion. I would likely disagree with you since in the circles I run in it still serves its original purpose. However it would be POSSIBLE to convince me I am in error if I was presented with a convincing argument that showed my particular circle was so out of the mainstream we were ignorant of how poisoned a well that specific phrase had become. But that still would be a different discussion than the position you and Drew are asserting which is the term is inherently insulting to all men on its face. Because in English that just isn't accurate, adjectives modify the base word they are associated with to define a specific subset, they do NOT apply to the base universally.


* First off, she asserts that the term isn't denigrating because a man created it. Which is kind of like saying that if I call Lynnette a bitch it's bad because I'm a man, but if a woman calls her a bitch it can't be bad, or not as bad, because it was used by a woman. How about we just dispense with the idea that something coined by a man about men isn't automatically useful and good because it was a man.



No what said was a Man leading a Men's movement (Mythopoetic Men, which was specifically formed to work against a "feminist" agenda BTW) came up with that phrasing as part of an effort stop the maligning of ALL masculinity he felt was becoming all to common.

It was his PURPOSE for coming up with the phrasing that I was pointing out, not some silly association that just because he was a man he couldn't be saying bad things about men.

shake

Again we continue to talk past each other.

shake

I have to go cook dinner now. I will have to get to the rest of your OP later.


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I've spent entirely too much time describing the difference between toxic masculinity and masculinity to deaf ears, so:

The false rape reporting rate is, going by the FBI, 8%.

If Dashi can assume a black kid on a porch is a criminal who deserves to be beaten up, I'm pretty sure he can also assume that someone who said they were raped was actually raped.

Or he's oblivious of the 92% truthful estimate. Who knows.

The number of reported rapes that are met with any conviction at all is about 33%. (Some number of those are incorrect. Yep.)

Of course, sometimes a man ends up on the wrong end of a witch hunt, so men are being victimized.

Attempting to teach morons how not to rape people at a frat party maybe isn't a giant waste of time just because some guys were falsely accused and treated unfairly.

You can be against witch hunts and rape. But people are getting away with rape a whole lot more often than they are falsely accused.

Also: I don't want to link the graphic here as it's inaccurate, but if you want to look at any of the controversy over these statistics, this article was alright: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/12/...

Concluding that we need to focus on the victims of false accusation when there's a much greater problem going on is silly.
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DWTripp wrote:
But since the discussion evolved to a higher plane, one where Kuhrusty disses me

WANT SOME GET SOME

(Thank you; each of my disses is a custom-designed, hand-crafted, artisanal dis, and it's always gratifying to hear that some people still have a basic appreciation for craftsmanship.)
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Hmmm... so far exactly as expected. Not a single response deals with the OP subject or the article which clearly uses the concept of toxic masculinity as a definition for normative male behavior.

The good thing, Lynnette didn't demand an apology nor does she expect one. Excellent. Nobody will be disappointed then.

Anyway, once you guys are done high-fiving each other and thumbing each other on how awesomely you think you put me in my place - how about addressing the subject. I already pretty much dismissed what whomever coined the phrase meant because that's moot now. If you read the article and see what Duke is presenting you'll see that what some dude 20 or 30 years ago said doesn't apply to what the phrase now means. So read the article look at the concept of toxic being normal male behavior as the course outlines and then tell me again why it is that using the term doesn't indict men in general.

Oh, and Bazler, fuck off, "hundreds of times"? And didn't you ever hang out and cut BS with your buddies and call each other names? Oh wait, I take that back, of course you didn't, you're a sensitive little girl when it comes to bad mens using mean words.

FFS.
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DWTripp wrote:
Hmmm... so far exactly as expected. Not a single response deals with the OP subject or the article which clearly uses the concept of toxic masculinity as a definition for normative male behavior.

The good thing, Lynnette didn't demand an apology nor does she expect one. Excellent. Nobody will be disappointed then.

Anyway, once you guys are done high-fiving each other and thumbing each other on how awesomely you think you put me in my place - how about addressing the subject. I already pretty much dismissed what whomever coined the phrase meant because that's moot now. If you read the article and see what Duke is presenting you'll see that what some dude 20 or 30 years ago said doesn't apply to what the phrase now means. So read the article look at the concept of toxic being normal male behavior as the course outlines and then tell me again why it is that using the term doesn't indict men in general.

Oh, and Bazler, fuck off, "hundreds of times"? And didn't you ever hang out and cut BS with your buddies and call each other names? Oh wait, I take that back, of course you didn't, you're a sensitive little girl when it comes to bad mens using mean words.

FFS.


Yeah, the Duke thing, I read it yesterday. On Fox News though, which linked to Duke's site. It's a bunch of crying about an entirely reasonable way to use the concept of toxic masculinity. But if you say the word safe space, conservatives get ~triggered, so it's not surprising.

Here's another article for you to ignore that lays out the difference, but for finding the phrase "normative masculinity is alienating to most men," I award you one tenth of a point. It takes a deliberate misreading of the author's intent to say that all men are broken by masculinity, but, that's fine.

https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-b...

Quote:
The Difference Between Toxic Masculinity and Being A Man
One of the things that comes up frequently when we talk about toxic masculinity are the various wags who demand to know why we’re labeling all men as being toxic, evil or otherwise malignant. That, in and of itself, is the problem in a nutshell: for many people, the toxic ideas of masculinity are synonymous with being a man. The problem isn’t about gender, genitalia or identity, it’s about what we allow to be the definition of what it means to “be a man”.

Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits – which can range fromemotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual – are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away.

man-card
Sex, in particular, is an important part of “being a man”. Sexual conquests (and believe me, that word is chosen deliberately) are part of how men establish and reaffirm their manhood. The need to “get” sex is all-encompassing because the more of it you have, the higher “status” you have as a man.
You’ll notice how often sex and sexlessness comes up as an insult when a man wants to insult another man. “Mangina” and “pussy” are about implying that someone has no balls and thus no manhood; they may as well be women. “Beta” and “white knight” are also common, with the connotations that someone is unable to get laid in the first place. “White knight”, in particular, is levied at men who stand up for women – the implication being that they’re only doing so because they think that this might end up with them being rewarded with sex.“Cuck”, the latest in the long line of “ha ha, you’re not a man” insults from various asshats, takes it another step further: you’re so emasculated that you watch other men (especially black men – a vein of racist imagery rich in all kinds of toxic ideas about masculinity) take sexual advantage of what is supposedly “your” property.

Getting your dick wet becomes a way of chasing away the image of being effete or unmanly. As Detroit Lions linebacker Deandre Levy said so well in his piece on consent and sexual assault: “It’s truly astounding how many awful things that occur in this world because men are afraid of appearing weak.”

And so, the “boys will be boys” attitude towards sex contributes not just to toxic masculinity but to the fallout from letting toxic masculinity thrive. We let the damage done by toxic masculinity contribute to a culture where rape and sexual assault are tacitly or explicitly permitted – even encouraged.

Case in point: the case of Stanford University swimmer and convicted rapist Brock Allan Turner.
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DWTripp wrote:
Oh, and Bazler, fuck off, "hundreds of times"? And didn't you ever hang out and cut BS with your buddies and call each other names? Oh wait, I take that back, of course you didn't, you're a sensitive little girl when it comes to bad mens using mean words.


There we go. You really lack even the tiniest bit of self-awarerness, don't you?

You first state that men calling each other names is normative male behavior, and then you immediately try to insult me by calling me a girl. You just used your own self-identification with masculinity to justify a sexist remark, as if being a misogynistic asshole was just part of being a "real man." In two sentences you achieved exactly what the article you cited and the Duke course are trying to address. Well done!

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Meerkat wrote:
Then I quoted directly where Drew ASKED ME in no uncertain terms to stop using that term along with another phrase.

I'm simply astonished that drew would try and silence speech to create a safe space where he won't face being triggered.
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cbazler wrote:
DWTripp wrote:
Oh, and Bazler, fuck off, "hundreds of times"? And didn't you ever hang out and cut BS with your buddies and call each other names? Oh wait, I take that back, of course you didn't, you're a sensitive little girl when it comes to bad mens using mean words.


There we go. You really lack even the tiniest bit of self-awarerness, don't you?

You first state that men calling each other names is normative male behavior, and then you immediately try to insult me by calling me a girl. You just used your own self-identification with masculinity to justify a sexist remark, as if being a misogynistic asshole was just part of being a "real man." In two sentences you achieved exactly what the article you cited and the Duke course are trying to address. Well done!



I think that's why he reacted strongly to this. He sees himself being criticized.
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\angry "RAGE BONER!" 'arousing' EXCITE with mere sight/cite of "Caustic Homs Oppressor Also Dickhead"! robot ~"Drew dat BO!"

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Rusty McFisticuffs
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GROGnads wrote:
\angry "RAGE BONER!"

Not OK, man. This is a family site.
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Robert Wesley
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GROGnads wrote:
\angry "RAGE BONER!"
kuhrusty wrote:

Not OK, man. This is a family site.
\robot "C.H.O.A.D."`em-'pole'?
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Conservative dudes are made of porcelain.
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Boaty McBoatface
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growlley wrote:
"How the hell does anyone learn anything if there isn't strong and aggressive debate and a concerted attack on the ideas you cling to? "

Is fine until you start resorting to personal attacks and then it just demonstrates the weakness of the person making the attack.
But you cannot make an intelligent elephant without including the word elephant in your elephant argument...elephant!
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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Meerkat wrote:
Point of Order:


DWTripp wrote:
...
Lynnette demands I apologize for daring to doubt her intents,
...

* I also want to point out, to her, and the usual gang of RSP dickbags, that I am not going to apologize to anyone for a comment in RSP. I perceive her approach a certain way and I state it. She says otherwise, I disagree. The idea that anyone needs to apologize on the internet for interacting on the internet is insane and to me demonstrates the fragile and delicate nature of the egos that demand apologies for what amounts to normal, casual, everyday discussion.

...


I did not DEMAND an apology. I didn't even actually ASK for one.

Re: Monday in DC a man openly condemned my interracial family. Help me find balance.

Read our exchange again Tripp.

You said this:

DWTripp wrote:
Meerkat wrote:

As said I will honor the request to stop using it here. But as far as I am concerned all you have done is toss up additional roadblocks to effective communication on an important topic.



Seriously? Who requested you not use the term? I didn't and I reread Drew's posts here and he didn't. He said he didn't like it and explained his reasons. So did I. But by repeating that you'll "honor our request" but with the unspoken inference that it is an uninformed and invalid one is what I might think of as "toxic femininity": that point in a conversation where the toxic female trait takes over and passively/aggressively tries to give the appearance of conciliatory agreement while knowingly demeaning the others who disagree.


Then I quoted directly where Drew ASKED ME in no uncertain terms to stop using that term along with another phrase. I also pointed out how some other things you implied about me in that paragraph were in error.

And then I said:

Meerkat wrote:


Want to rethink this bit now and perhaps apologize?



Perhaps is not a DEMAND, Tripp.

That was a suggestion that since you were behaving like a jackass over something you had the facts wrong about, you might want to CONSIDER revising your behavior.

Fact: You were being a jerk toward me over something I didn't even DO.

Apologizing would have been the polite thing for you to do once that was clearly pointed out.

HOWEVER I don't even try to pressure people to go though meaningless motions. If you do not regret being a jackass toward me, I don't even want you to apologize. So I sure as hell am not going to try to demand you do so.

I think one of the reasons we are talking past each other is that I use very precise language and you don't pay much attention to word choice at all. Which results in you not only missing nuance within a long paragraph, but apparently you can actually misread entirely a single direct sentence.

I choose my words specifically to convey exactly what I meant to express. I picked the word PERHAPS and phrased the suggestion as a question for a REASON. That reason being I don't want a fake or pressured apology from somebody who doesn't think they did anything wrong.

If you don't see that you were both wrong on the facts and being a jackass to me erroneously ... than by all means Don't APOLOGIZE!


However if you do see that you were wrong on the facts and that this lead you to ascribing to me nasty motives and habits I was not guilty of than the polite and HONORABLE thing to do would have been to apologize. But even so, I did not and would not try to DEMAND you behave in a polite and honorable way. I did assume you would WANT to at least consider doing so because I thought that in general beneath that grumpy/gruff persona you tried to be an honorable man.

So I am not demanding you apologize even now for being a a jerk toward me. But I am ASKING for you to please stop COMPOUNDING your offenses by continuing to sling even more INACCURATE accusations at me.

Trip being dishonest, never...ITS A JOKE, IT'S ALL A JOKE, WANKER CUNTS!!!!!
 
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