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Subject: Solo - Purchasing Djinns rss

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Colin Taylor
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Hi,

I just bought Five Tribes to play solo. Just reading the rules, I have a question regarding how Yazid buys Djinns:

Five Tribes Solo Rules wrote:
If Yazid has at least 1 Elder and 1 Fakir (or 2 Elders, if he has no Fakirs) at the end of his turn, he discards them to buy the first available Djinn.


So, does this mean once he has the minimum amount to buy a Djinn, he actually discards all the Elders and Fakirs he has? What does "discards them" refer to? Let's say he has 3 Fakirs from previous rounds, and this turn, picks up 2 Elders. Would the Djinn cost 2 Elders + 3 Fakirs? They way I read it, the answer would be that he discards everything he has at the time, mainly due to the "at least" part. If the cost was just 1 Elder + 1 Fakir, or 2 Elders, I think it would have said so more explicitly.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Aernout Casier
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I have thus far played that he pays the normal price for a Djinn (2 elders/1 elder & 1 slave/fakir), but can only buy one per turn.
 
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Colin Taylor
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That's probably right, but the RAW leave it too wide to be certain. By using "at least", it makes me think ANY Elders/Fakirs it has must be discarded. Otherwise, it could have just said "If Yazid can afford a Djinn at the end of his turn, he will buy one. The cost is 1 Elder + 1 Fakir (or 2 Elders, if he has no Fakirs)."

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Jason W
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There are lots of different ways it could've been written. The rules are clear because the cost of a djinn is 2 elders or 1 fakir and 1 elder. The solo rules are the same. If Yazid played by different rules than the rest of the game is played, the solo rules would have explained this in more detail.
 
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Jeff Carter
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ColintheFlea wrote:
That's probably right, but the RAW leave it too wide to be certain. By using "at least", it makes me think ANY Elders/Fakirs it has must be discarded. Otherwise, it could have just said "If Yazid can afford a Djinn at the end of his turn, he will buy one. The cost is 1 Elder + 1 Fakir (or 2 Elders, if he has no Fakirs)."

Thanks,

Colin

I think "he discards them" means he discards the 2 that it costs, not discards all of them
 
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Colin Taylor
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jdw734 wrote:
The rules are clear because the cost of a djinn is 2 elders or 1 fakir and 1 elder.


Hi,

The cost for a human player is 2 Elders or 1 Fakir and 1 Elder. The cost for Yazid is not clear, and that's why I'm asking. If you had 3 apples, and I said to you "if you have at least 2 apples, discard them", how many would you throw away? Maybe he pays a variable amount, and the idea of discarding them all is for him not to stockpile, and buy Djinns over multiple turns.

As I said earlier, the human price could be the inferred price for Yazid, but it's not 100% clear. If the consensus is the human price, then that's what I'll use. (BTW, the Yazid price is not 2 Elders or 1 Elder + 1 Fakir. He only uses 2 Elders if he has no Fakir, so he doesn't get the price options a human does).

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Colin Taylor
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jdw734 wrote:
There are lots of different ways it could've been written. The rules are clear because the cost of a djinn is 2 elders or 1 fakir and 1 elder. The solo rules are the same. If Yazid played by different rules than the rest of the game is played, the solo rules would have explained this in more detail.


On a related note, do you put the discarded Elders back in the bag? It says to do that for the Builders and Merchants, but just says "discard" the Elders. The human rules say to put them back in the bag.

Colin
 
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Colin Taylor
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IdleHacker wrote:

I think "he discards them" means he discards the 2 that it costs, not discards all of them


That's certainly an option, but what do you base that on? Same as above, if you have 3 apples, and I say "if you have at least 2 apples, discard them", how many do you throw away? 2 or 3? I'm not really certain, and hence the question.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Jeff Carter
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ColintheFlea wrote:
IdleHacker wrote:

I think "he discards them" means he discards the 2 that it costs, not discards all of them


That's certainly an option, but what do you base that on? Same as above, if you have 3 apples, and I say "if you have at least 2 apples, discard them", how many do you throw away? 2 or 3? I'm not really certain, and hence the question.

Thanks,

Colin

I base it off of my interpretation of the language. I may be wrong, but it wouldn't make any sense to me the other way. If the rules for a game stated "An apple costs $0.50. If you have at least $0.50, give it to the bank and take an apple." would you give all of your money to the bank or just $0.50? I would only give $0.50
 
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Colin Taylor
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IdleHacker wrote:
ColintheFlea wrote:
IdleHacker wrote:

I think "he discards them" means he discards the 2 that it costs, not discards all of them


That's certainly an option, but what do you base that on? Same as above, if you have 3 apples, and I say "if you have at least 2 apples, discard them", how many do you throw away? 2 or 3? I'm not really certain, and hence the question.

Thanks,

Colin

I base it off of my interpretation of the language. I may be wrong, but it wouldn't make any sense to me the other way. If the rules for a game stated "An apple costs $0.50. If you have at least $0.50, give it to the bank and take an apple." would you give all of your money to the bank or just $0.50? I would only give $0.50


Hmmm, fair point. I guess I just see people reporting such low scores, so was wondering if this area was making it potentially tougher than intended.

Colin

Edit - though to be pedantic, it doesn't say that the Elders cost 1 Elder and 1 Fakir. It says if he has at least that many, discard them.
 
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Jeff Carter
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ColintheFlea wrote:
Edit - though to be pedantic, it doesn't say that the Elders cost 1 Elder and 1 Fakir. It says if he has at least that many, discard them.

It may not say that right before it, but that is the understood cost. You even said it yourself:
ColintheFlea wrote:
The cost for a human player is 2 Elders or 1 Fakir and 1 Elder.
 
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Dave Rathbun
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I would suggest that you simply do it the way it would be if you were playing a human opponent. The solo rules are there to allow you to play this game without having an actual human sitting across the table from you; they're not supposed to be penalized. I would never have assumed the solo opponent was supposed to discard "all" of their resources, only those required to actually purchase the card.
 
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Colin Taylor
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IdleHacker wrote:
ColintheFlea wrote:
Edit - though to be pedantic, it doesn't say that the Elders cost 1 Elder and 1 Fakir. It says if he has at least that many, discard them.

It may not say that right before it, but that is the understood cost. You even said it yourself:
ColintheFlea wrote:
The cost for a human player is 2 Elders or 1 Fakir and 1 Elder.


Right, but you're quoting me regarding the cost for a human player. In that section, it says a human player "pays", so cost is appropriate. Yazid doesn't pay, he discards. Is that different? I don't really know. Inconsistency of terms is something that appears quite a few times in the Five Tribes rules. Most of the time, it's something that one can infer intent. Other times, it's not so easy. I'll probably end up playing as if it costs the same as a human.

Any idea on whether the discarded Elders are added to the bag, or not? The wording there is also inconsistent with similar instances in other parts of the rules.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Colin Taylor
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drathbun wrote:
they're not supposed to be penalized.


Hi Dave,

I'm not sure I understand that logic. Solo opponents frequently alter the normal rules for a game. In this case, it could be that paying more for a Djinn, but having the acquisition of 6 ending the game, is perfectly balanced. Essentially, when considering Djinns, the AI is playing a completely different game to the human. He's collecting 6, with no regard to tile type, and can't use the powers. You have no target, restrictions on when you can buy one, and can use the powers. Doesn't seem unreasonable (though it may not be correct) to assume the effort to acquire them is different also.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Colin Taylor
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OK, so I think I'll go with consensus, and pay the human costs when Yazid tries to buy a Djinn. I'm not 100% convinced that is correct, but happy to run with it unless there is compelling information to the contrary.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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Jason W
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ColintheFlea wrote:
Any idea on whether the discarded Elders are added to the bag, or not? The wording there is also inconsistent with similar instances in other parts of the rules.
I don't think there's any difference between 'discard' and 'put in bag', since in both cases the pieces are removed from the game. The meeples are placed in the bag because that's where they are stored between games. The fakirs are cards, and thus are discarded. Feel free to place the elders in the bag as well.
 
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Colin Taylor
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jdw734 wrote:
ColintheFlea wrote:
Any idea on whether the discarded Elders are added to the bag, or not? The wording there is also inconsistent with similar instances in other parts of the rules.
I don't think there's any difference between 'discard' and 'put in bag', since in both cases the pieces are removed from the game. The meeples are placed in the bag because that's where they are stored between games. The fakirs are cards, and thus are discarded. Feel free to place the elders in the bag as well.


Ah, OK. I haven't come across all the Djinns powers yet, so assumed that perhaps some of them can redraw from the bag. If that's not the case, then it really doesn't matter, of course.

Colin

Edit - Yes, there is a Djinn who can reuse Meeples from the discard bag, Anun-Nak. So it does make a difference where the Elders go. I would assume they don't go back, as it usually says to place them back in the bag. Conversely, an assassinated Elder does go in the bag. So maybe they do.
 
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Franck@DoW
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Hello!

Wow... Quite a debate here ;-)

Yazid "pays" his Djinns the same price as the Human Player and can only purchase one per turn.

So, for instance, if he starts the turn with two fakir cards and captures, say, 3 Elders, he buys the first available Djinn by paying 1 Elder and 1 Fakir Card.

The Fakir Card is discarded and the Elder goes into the bag (the standard rule, as described in the multiplayer rules, applies here).

So, as he cannot buy more than one Djinn per turn, Yazid ends his turn with 2 Elders and 1 Fakir, which means he will get another Djinn in the following turn even if he doesn't get new Elders and or Fakirs.

Hope this helps...

Happy Gaming!



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Colin Taylor
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Hi Franck,

Thanks for confirming those answers. I've played 3 games over the past 3 nights, and so far, I'm loving it. I bought it for solo only, and whilst it differs from the MP game (I prefer staying as close to the MP as possible), the AI provides a really good opponent. It was a great idea to include the auto-lose requirements, as this really elevates it over a beat-your-score style game.

Now, if only I could get over 190pts. So far, I lost to 7 Assassins, scored 185 and 135pts. A long way to go to win yet.

Thanks,

Colin
 
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