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Subject: Attacker's "Advantage"? rss

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Don Sombrero
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In the rules it says that due to Attacker' Advantage, their special abilities are resolved first.

I wonder if this can still be called an advantage. Obviously, with the new factions, it is always more convenient to get your +2 Power bonuses after Saxony/Nordics use their -2 Power ability. Hence the question:

1. Attacker always resolves their ability first and "advantage" may just be a bit misleading

2. The rationale for designing that rule was to give the attacker an advantage so with the expansion it should be rephrased to "may choose which player's ability resolves first".

I know the exact phrasing is clear at the moment but I am just curious what the actual intention was while designing the rule.
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Greg
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Why is it always more convenient to get your +2 power bonuses after Saxony/Nordic use their -2 Power ability?
 
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Klaus Kristiansen
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The order will only matter if you are near either end of the power track. Which is to your advantage depends on the situation.

Which raises another question: if you have 14 power and get first +2 then -2 at the start of the same combat, do you get to place your 16 power star?
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Trevor Schadt
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Klaus O K wrote:
Which raises another question: if you have 14 power and get first +2 then -2 at the start of the same combat, do you get to place your 16 power star?
If the +2 resolves first, then I'd say yes. If the -2 resolves first, obviously, no.
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Mad Halfling
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ryudoowaru wrote:
Klaus O K wrote:
Which raises another question: if you have 14 power and get first +2 then -2 at the start of the same combat, do you get to place your 16 power star?
If the +2 resolves first, then I'd say yes. If the -2 resolves first, obviously, no.


On what's been said on here - the general answer is as soon as you place that 6th star it's game-over - I'd say yes, given the above order stipulation. I'd also guess that this would cancel the combat, too, and the moving units would get moved back, otherwise you could have the situation where winning that combat could cause a "7th" star to be placed (if the attacker won and still had combat slots available) or two people to be on 6 stars (if the defender needed to win the combat to get their 6th star) - neither of which, it's been made pretty clear, can happen.

It's a bit of an edge-case so you may want clarification from Jamey. But if it is legit, it's a pretty sneaky way to get that 6th star out =8)
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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If a 6th star would be placed, the game immediately ends, even if other things were already set in motion to happen.
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Don Sombrero
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jameystegmaier wrote:
If a 6th star would be placed, the game immediately ends, even if other things were already set in motion to happen.


Jamey, thank you for the clarification!

Could you also help clarify the issue I raised in the OP?
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Pretty much every rule of Scythe combat is intended to make combat happen smoothly, without confusion, and to give a slight edge to the attacker (lest there be no attacking at all). That's the case with this rule.

If we look at all of the various combat abilities, I can't find one that gives you an advantage if taken second instead of first. At worst, perhaps this is just semantics: You can read it as "attacker first" instead of "attacker advantage."
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Don Sombrero
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jameystegmaier wrote:
Pretty much every rule of Scythe combat is intended to make combat happen smoothly, without confusion, and to give a slight edge to the attacker (lest there be no attacking at all). That's the case with this rule.

If we look at all of the various combat abilities, I can't find one that gives you an advantage if taken second instead of first. At worst, perhaps this is just semantics: You can read it as "attacker first" instead of "attacker advantage."


Thank you for making it crystal clear

Just to clarify what I meant - when you are near the end of the track (1, 15 or 16), it actually makes difference. Let's take 2 examples:

1. 1 power (expansion faction) and fighting Saxony on a Tunnel:
a) 1 - 2 = 0 (no negative values); 0 + 2 = 2
b) 1 + 2 = 3; 3 - 2 =1

2. 16 power (expansion faction) and fighting Saxony on a Tunnel:

a) 16 - 2 = 14; 14 + 2 = 16
b) 16 + 2 = 16 (max value); 16 - 2 = 14

However, as mentioned - it just to clarify what I had in mind. The explanation is perfectly clear and answers the question
 
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Jamey Stegmaier
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Ah, I see. If you are the Togawa faction with the Ronin ability and a faction causes you to lose 2 power, it's better for you to have 0 or 1 power, take the -2 (dropping you to 0), then gain your 2 power. I think the effect is minimized if you're at 15 or 16 power--at that point, you already have more than enough power to spend for at least 2 combats.

So yes, you're right--it honestly didn't occur to me when designing Ronin. I wouldn't change the rule, though.
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Greg
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Seems like corner cases really.
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Don Sombrero
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jameystegmaier wrote:
Ah, I see. If you are the Togawa faction with the Ronin ability and a faction causes you to lose 2 power, it's better for you to have 0 or 1 power, take the -2 (dropping you to 0), then gain your 2 power. I think the effect is minimized if you're at 15 or 16 power--at that point, you already have more than enough power to spend for at least 2 combats.

So yes, you're right--it honestly didn't occur to me when designing Ronin. I wouldn't change the rule, though.


Thanks for the final ruling!
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