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Subject: What I hope for in an expansion. rss

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Billy Babel
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1st Some combat overhalls. I hope they take a page from battle of five armies and give each faction a nice stack of combat cards that are specific to them and help out with the things they worry most about, and make the combat cards work around specific units being in battle, or generals needing a specific amount of a certain stat in order to use it. Like rebels being able to attack with y wings and retreat before the empire can fire back if the general leading the attack has 3 intel. Things like that.

The other thing I would like are minor heroes, heroes who instead of being able to be assigned to missions, are assigned to planets and have a lasting effect that triggers each round automatically, and can be permanently removed by a hero that goes to that planet and passes a test. For instance a minor jabba the hut hero might provide one automatic capture attempt against any hero in the same region as tatooine, or a rebel minor hero "I can't think of who they would use off the top of my head" could for instance spawn a free rebel trooper on a loyal planet each round until a hero would take care of them. Minor heroes would be activated via missions and would last until another hero pass a skill test to take them out of the game. It would be a good way to bring some of the smaller more niche things like Ewoks for instance who could do something like instantly defeating the first empire ground force that lands on the planet.
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David Umstattd
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BillyBabel wrote:
1st Some combat overhalls. I hope they take a page from battle of five armies and give each faction a nice stack of combat cards that are specific to them and help out with the things they worry most about, and make the combat cards work around specific units being in battle, or generals needing a specific amount of a certain stat in order to use it. Like rebels being able to attack with y wings and retreat before the empire can fire back if the general leading the attack has 3 intel. Things like that.

The other thing I would like are minor heroes, heroes who instead of being able to be assigned to missions, are assigned to planets and have a lasting effect that triggers each round automatically, and can be permanently removed by a hero that goes to that planet and passes a test. For instance a minor jabba the hut hero might provide one automatic capture attempt against any hero in the same region as tatooine, or a rebel minor hero "I can't think of who they would use off the top of my head" could for instance spawn a free rebel trooper on a loyal planet each round until a hero would take care of them. Minor heroes would be activated via missions and would last until another hero pass a skill test to take them out of the game. It would be a good way to bring some of the smaller more niche things like Ewoks for instance who could do something like instantly defeating the first empire ground force that lands on the planet.


I really disagree. The current combat system is really good. The cards, generals and unit comps all being equally important is a good balanced system.

The need to have balanced unit comps is and should be inherent to the mechanics. Not an arbitrary bonus you get from a card for having the magic comp to give you some abstract bonus. To implement what you suggest would be a step backwards.

Something like Minor heroes could work, but so many heroes are already in the game that most people would classify as "minor" anyway. And you already have R2D2 and C-3PO which basically is exactly what your suggesting: minor heroes that give a bonus to a specific hero. Maybe more of these character rings? Sure why not.

I do like the idea of missions that give some sort of status effect to an area or hero for a few turns. More cards like misdirection (but not too many cards) could be interesting.
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Barry Miller
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I agree that the combat system is good as is. While reading all the negative comments about the combat system since the game's release, it almost sounds as if people think that the designer slapped together a combat system in his sleep and with a little more effort or thought, could've produced a much better system. Or that the rest of the design team and playtesters simply fell asleep when it came to providing feedback on the combat.

I, OTOH, assume that the designer put a lot of thought and careful consideration into the combat system! With a game of this gravitas, how could he not? So that's why I gave combat the benefit of the doubt. I mean, has anyone asked why the combat system is designed the way it is? Thusly I'm not willing to dismiss the designer's intent and method for the combat system.

So after giving it the benefit of the doubt, I've come to appreciate the combat system. I appreciate why it works the way it does, what it's meant to represent in the game, and how and why it fits in the game.

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David Umstattd
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bgm1961 wrote:

I agree that the combat system is good as is. While reading all the negative comments about the combat system since the game's release, it almost sounds as if people think that the designer slapped together a combat system in his sleep and with a little more effort or thought, could've produced a much better system. Or that the rest of the design team and playtesters simply fell asleep when it came to providing feedback on the combat.

I, OTOH, assume that the designer put a lot of thought and careful consideration into the combat system! With a game of this gravitas, how could he not? So that's why I gave combat the benefit of the doubt. I mean, has anyone asked why the combat system is designed the way it is? Thusly I'm not willing to dismiss the designer's intent and method for the combat system.

So after giving it the benefit of the doubt, I've come to appreciate the combat system. I appreciate why it works the way it does, what it's meant to represent in the game, and how and why it fits in the game.



Same. Some people just don't like the combat system for some reason I can't fathom. Which is fine. To each their own. But I like the combat system. It's balanced and intriguing. Dice rolls and card draws are tense. There's mind games of over assigning damage and predicting opponents hands.

The only thing that's cumbersome is if there are large space battles happening at the same time as large ground battles. But I don't think resolving all space and then all ground is viable. The fact you can retreat ground and space after one or two rounds is vital to rebel strategy.

A simple battle board could help for these rare occurrences.
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Billy Babel
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For me being forced to rely on random card draws makes the combat too random. Cards should be a mitigation to the randomness of dice not that I have a problem with dice. Battle of five army's combat is very close to how rebellions combat is and the ability to have faction specific battle cards And a general pool of combat cards is a great evolution, as are cards being tied to specific units because then it creates strategic targets to protect and attack first
 
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David Umstattd
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BillyBabel wrote:
For me being forced to rely on random card draws makes the combat too random. Cards should be a mitigation to the randomness of dice not that I have a problem with dice. Battle of five army's combat is very close to how rebellions combat is and the ability to have faction specific battle cards And a general pool of combat cards is a great evolution, as are cards being tied to specific units because then it creates strategic targets to protect and attack first


You aren't forced to rely on random card draw. A superior comp or overwhelming force will win almost every time against an inferior force with a few more cards. And cards won't always help. If cards always helped it would be too powerful.

You already have a system in place which encourages you to have strategic targets and other targets you want to protect or attack first. But that's based on strategy, not generic mechanics.
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Justin
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I don't mind the cards, but I wonder (and this may have already been postulated) if folks that do couldn't simply use tactic values as a re-roll.
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Barry Miller
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BillyBabel wrote:
For me being forced to rely on random card draws makes the combat too random.

About the randomness of the Tactics Cards, I wrote the below words in another thread (found here: Re: Why beat up on the combat system ? It's a whole mini game in and of itself .....):

The beauty of the Tactics Cards is that they add the "unforeseen" element to each battle, which makes it more true to real life than using dice only. Real life combat plans use known probabilities as the root of their formation. And in our games, the dice represent those probabilities. But as illustrated by the oft-heard quote, “No plan survives contact with the enemy”, even real life plans can go sideways very quickly and in unexpected ways.

That element is what the Tactics Cards bring to SW:R battles, and would be lost without them.


David Umstattd wrote:
A simple battle board could help for these rare occurrences.

Sorry, but this begs for my absolutely shameless plug, in case you haven't seen it: Battle Mat with 2 Theater Presentation.
I offer four different versions of the mat.

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David Umstattd
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bgm1961 wrote:

BillyBabel wrote:
For me being forced to rely on random card draws makes the combat too random.

About the randomness of the Tactics Cards, I wrote the below words in another thread (found here: Re: Why beat up on the combat system ? It's a whole mini game in and of itself .....):

The beauty of the Tactics Cards is that they add the "unforeseen" element to each battle, which makes it more true to real life than using dice only. Real life combat plans use known probabilities as the root of their formation. And in our games, the dice represent those probabilities. But as illustrated by the oft-heard quote, “No plan survives contact with the enemy”, even real life plans can go sideways very quickly and in unexpected ways.

That element is what the Tactics Cards bring to SW:R battles, and would be lost without them.


David Umstattd wrote:
A simple battle board could help for these rare occurrences.

Sorry, but this begs for my absolutely shameless plug, in case you haven't seen it: Battle Mat with 2 Theater Presentation.
I offer four different versions of the mat.



Oh yeah, I was going to link to something like that but I'm lazy.
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Billy Babel
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bgm1961 wrote:

BillyBabel wrote:
For me being forced to rely on random card draws makes the combat too random.

About the randomness of the Tactics Cards, I wrote the below words in another thread (found here: Re: Why beat up on the combat system ? It's a whole mini game in and of itself .....):

The beauty of the Tactics Cards is that they add the "unforeseen" element to each battle, which makes it more true to real life than using dice only. Real life combat plans use known probabilities as the root of their formation. And in our games, the dice represent those probabilities. But as illustrated by the oft-heard quote, “No plan survives contact with the enemy”, even real life plans can go sideways very quickly and in unexpected ways.

That element is what the Tactics Cards bring to SW:R battles, and would be lost without them.


David Umstattd wrote:
A simple battle board could help for these rare occurrences.

Sorry, but this begs for my absolutely shameless plug, in case you haven't seen it: Battle Mat with 2 Theater Presentation.
I offer four different versions of the mat.



dice add the unforseen element, i'm not saying the battle system is bad, I don't see why everyone is jumping into defend it, all things can be improved upon, and I think that having combat cards that you can keep and that are specific to your faction is an improvement. You still have random card draws from the shared deck that represent another unforseen element, but a good commander knows the strengths and weaknesses of his men. You didn't see the Romans try to fight the barbarians in cavalry battles. The same thing is true in star wars, a commander knows his units and has certain strategies that he can use to play to the strengths of his units and the weaknesses of his opponents like the British knew how to use their long bows and wanted to try to fight their opponents in mud to make them march slowly while they could fire at them. The rebels and empire would have strategies specific to their units that would play to their strengths.
 
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Doug DeMoss
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BillyBabel wrote:

dice add the unforseen element, i'm not saying the battle system is bad, I don't see why everyone is jumping into defend it, all things can be improved upon, and I think that having combat cards that you can keep and that are specific to your faction is an improvement. You still have random card draws from the shared deck that represent another unforseen element, but a good commander knows the strengths and weaknesses of his men. You didn't see the Romans try to fight the barbarians in cavalry battles. The same thing is true in star wars, a commander knows his units and has certain strategies that he can use to play to the strengths of his units and the weaknesses of his opponents like the British knew how to use their long bows and wanted to try to fight their opponents in mud to make them march slowly while they could fire at them. The rebels and empire would have strategies specific to their units that would play to their strengths.


Not in the same way, they don't. Where the tactics cards really shine is when you look at your dice roll, and your opponent's cards, and you DON'T KNOW whether you've rolled enough damage to kill a key ship unless you apply EVERYTHING to it, even though you'd like to hit more things. Likewise, you don't know if he might have some extra damage up his sleeve; you can't count on him not having the firepower to take out a ship YOU really want to make sure survives.

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Billy Babel
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demoss1 wrote:
BillyBabel wrote:

dice add the unforseen element, i'm not saying the battle system is bad, I don't see why everyone is jumping into defend it, all things can be improved upon, and I think that having combat cards that you can keep and that are specific to your faction is an improvement. You still have random card draws from the shared deck that represent another unforseen element, but a good commander knows the strengths and weaknesses of his men. You didn't see the Romans try to fight the barbarians in cavalry battles. The same thing is true in star wars, a commander knows his units and has certain strategies that he can use to play to the strengths of his units and the weaknesses of his opponents like the British knew how to use their long bows and wanted to try to fight their opponents in mud to make them march slowly while they could fire at them. The rebels and empire would have strategies specific to their units that would play to their strengths.


Not in the same way, they don't. Where the tactics cards really shine is when you look at your dice roll, and your opponent's cards, and you DON'T KNOW whether you've rolled enough damage to kill a key ship unless you apply EVERYTHING to it, even though you'd like to hit more things. Likewise, you don't know if he might have some extra damage up his sleeve; you can't count on him not having the firepower to take out a ship YOU really want to make sure survives.



all of that stuff would absolutely still happen if you had a deck of combat cards you could keep.
 
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Barry Miller
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BillyBabel wrote:
dice add the unforeseen element, I’m not saying the battle system is bad, I don't see why everyone is jumping into defend it, all things can be improved upon, and I think that having combat cards that you can keep and that are specific to your faction is an improvement. You still have random card draws from the shared deck that represent another unforeseen element, but a good commander knows the strengths and weaknesses of his men. You didn't see the Romans try to fight the barbarians in cavalry battles. The same thing is true in star wars, a commander knows his units and has certain strategies that he can use to play to the strengths of his units and the weaknesses of his opponents like the British knew how to use their long bows and wanted to try to fight their opponents in mud to make them march slowly while they could fire at them. The rebels and empire would have strategies specific to their units that would play to their strengths.

You make a solid point worth considering. While I admit that that element (modeling the availability of asymmetrical strengths) is missing from the system, I would offer that the system doesn't suffer for lack of it.

One thing about the sort of system you're talking about, is that a commander's/force's strength, as modeled by the cards you're wanting, is always available. IOW, as long as the player holds the card (to use your example, "long bows"), the player is always able to employ the long bow. But in reality, such a guarantee isn't the case.

I could give you dozens of examples in history where a force brought to bear weapons or tactics that were the hallmark of their strength, yet they failed miserably despite. Those strengths are fine on paper, but quite often bear little resemblance to the unfolding of an actual battle. So again, it's this unforeseen element, that the Tactics Cards model so well (in an abstract way).

Also, you said that the dice provide the unforeseen element. But that's not true. Not even close, really. Any roll of the dice provides a mathematical result. Anything that can be calculated thru mathematics can never be considered, "unforeseen", right? As I mentioned in that other thread I linked to in my earlier post, the dice simply yield probabilities of outcome. One of the outcomes (roll results) may have a 66% chance of occurring, while another may have only a .05 probability of occurring. But none of those are unforeseen. And it's these sort of probabilities that real-life military planners use when planning war and battle plans.

But even these probabilities go out the window when the fighting starts. When the fighting starts is when the unforeseen usually (though not always) begins to occur. This is why I like the Tactics Card system. The system you speak of provides too much of a guarantee that doesn't exist in real life.

 
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Billy Babel
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bgm1961 wrote:

BillyBabel wrote:
dice add the unforeseen element, I’m not saying the battle system is bad, I don't see why everyone is jumping into defend it, all things can be improved upon, and I think that having combat cards that you can keep and that are specific to your faction is an improvement. You still have random card draws from the shared deck that represent another unforeseen element, but a good commander knows the strengths and weaknesses of his men. You didn't see the Romans try to fight the barbarians in cavalry battles. The same thing is true in star wars, a commander knows his units and has certain strategies that he can use to play to the strengths of his units and the weaknesses of his opponents like the British knew how to use their long bows and wanted to try to fight their opponents in mud to make them march slowly while they could fire at them. The rebels and empire would have strategies specific to their units that would play to their strengths.

You make a solid point worth considering. While I admit that that element (modeling the availability of asymmetrical strengths) is missing from the system, I would offer that the system doesn't suffer for lack of it.

One thing about the sort of system you're talking about, is that a commander's/force's strength, as modeled by the cards you're wanting, is always available. IOW, as long as the player holds the card (to use your example, "long bows"), the player is always able to employ the long bow. But in reality, such a guarantee isn't the case.

I could give you dozens of examples in history where a force brought to bear weapons or tactics that were the hallmark of their strength, yet they failed miserably despite. Those strengths are fine on paper, but quite often bear little resemblance to the unfolding of an actual battle. So again, it's this unforeseen element, that the Tactics Cards model so well (in an abstract way).

Also, you said that the dice provide the unforeseen element. But that's not true. Not even close, really. Any roll of the dice provides a mathematical result. Anything that can be calculated thru mathematics can never be considered, "unforeseen", right? As I mentioned in that other thread I linked to in my earlier post, the dice simply yield probabilities of outcome. One of the outcomes (roll results) may have a 66% chance of occurring, while another may have only a .05 probability of occurring. But none of those are unforeseen. And it's these sort of probabilities that real-life military planners use when planning war and battle plans.

But even these probabilities go out the window when the fighting starts. When the fighting starts is when the unforeseen usually (though not always) begins to occur. This is why I like the Tactics Card system. The system you speak of provides too much of a guarantee that doesn't exist in real life.



So in the system I'm talking about the cards wouldn't always be available, not at all. Like in my system you would send someone on like a "strategize" mission in the rebel base, or on coruscant depending on who you're playing as, and then you would draw a combat card that you would keep and that would be specific to your faction. There is still an unforseen element in what you will draw from your stack of cards, but you can at least go into battle with a bit of prediction. And thematically it represents a general taking the extra time and care to prepare and ensure a strategy comes to fruition, think Julius Ceaser's wooden fort in the siege of Alesia.

Also if an army brought to bear tactics that were their trademark and defeated, it's probably because the other army's commander used the strength of his army to counter theirs, which doesn't really run against what I'm saying in that people's troops are different and a good commander will use them to their strengths and against the enemy's weaknesses.

Also the card drawing is as much a mathmatical as the die roll, there are't that many different combat cards, and you still have like a 1/8 chance or something of getting a specific one. So the card system that is already there has the problems you're already talking about.
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David Umstattd
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bgm1961 wrote:


Also, you said that the dice provide the unforeseen element. But that's not true. Not even close, really. Any roll of the dice provides a mathematical result. Anything that can be calculated thru mathematics can never be considered, "unforeseen", right? As I mentioned in that other thread I linked to in my earlier post, the dice simply yield probabilities of outcome. One of the outcomes (roll results) may have a 66% chance of occurring, while another may have only a .05 probability of occurring. But none of those are unforeseen. And it's these sort of probabilities that real-life military planners use when planning war and battle plans.

But even these probabilities go out the window when the fighting starts. When the fighting starts is when the unforeseen usually (though not always) begins to occur. This is why I like the Tactics Card system. The system you speak of provides too much of a guarantee that doesn't exist in real life.



This is actually an important point. Dice provide predictable yet variable elements. But good card play isn't predictable. If certain cards are always worth playing in a certain way as long as you meet the necessary requirnments then card draw is just glorified dice rolling.

A card system should require you to think and have multiple options for use. Not just a "ooh I drew the card for the units I have in the battle. Auto play!"

Rebellion does a good job by often making you give up something in order to play a card. Which makes the card play less mathematical and more strategical.

If a game can be played by a computer calculating odds then chances are it's a poor game.
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Its funny that you guys made a thread to discuss expansion ideas and it has become yet another "how to fix the combat system" thread.

I like the combat system personally, i do agree that if there were faction specific tactic decks that would be cool, or a way to keep a tactic card from battle to battle (although that would probably favor the empire), but i really don't think it hurts the game.

The only time I sigh before a battle is when the empire moves thru a planet that has 1 rebel trooper and they have a whole army, do i really want to draw cards roll for empire, then roll for trooper...it should almost be treated as an unopposed mission.

Anyway

out of an expansion i would like a viable way to play this game with 3 players each with their own win conditions (2 players being on the imperial side but only one being able to win is fine - i made a vader variant like this)
a few more mission cards and objective cards would be great as well.
I don't think more leaders are necessary nor is there any characters i am missing in the game at the moment. Perhaps better leader stands that don't ruin the leader and rings card board.
The same for more units, with the exception of the Millenium Falcon (which i 3d printed a miniature for) and perhaps an imperial shield generator to protect death stars i don't think adding more would help at all, just make it cumbersome.
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I think that the introduction of a third faction allowing the game to be played by three players would be a valid inclusion.

This game is somewhat of a niche product in that it is a very grand and very very long 2 player game. The sheer time investment required in my opinion lends itself to being more of a multiplayer game.

Given that the game shares many similarities with the 90s computer game or the same name potentially indicates that it's predecessor (empire at war) might be worth a look at- particularly the use of the pirates/snuggling faction. Perhaps on way this could work is for this faction to be given an objective of creating a smuggling/trade route between two or more systems (drawn via a special deck of objectives cards- similar to Ticket to Ride.) Various bonus victory points could also be given for successfully capturing operatives from either side, mimicking the work of bounty hunters.

In this manner their objective for victory remains seperate from the main game of the Rebels vs Empire, which thematically is rather accurate of the objectives of say Jabba the Hutt and most bounty hunters, all of whom essentially work for the highest bidder.

In response to criticism of the existing combat system, I personally think some work in streamlining/ a simplification could be done, even as an "option", as I think the game can at times get bogged down. I think the current mechanism for missions works very well, but larger battles can become repetitive and tiresome.

The earlier idea posted above about varying tactics cards for each faction has merit, as I disagree on the view that the combat must be symmetrical and balanced. This entire game is unique in that the gameplay is asymmetric, with the Empire having all the resources and the rebels essentially trying to survive like a time bomb. It is a somewhat jarring juxtaposition then whenever combat is initiated, and this asymmetry is lost. The Star Wars spirit of 6 x-wings taking down an entire tie fighter squadron is absent here and in my view a missed opportunity. At the very least there should be some recognition to the fact that a loss of any unit is much more damaging to the Alliance then the Enpire.

In summary, IF any expansion is considered, the addition of a "third faction" to allow true three player gaming, and an optional alteration to combat (think the way that "tides of battle" cards are an optional (and in my view poor)addition to Game of Thrones the Boardgame combat), would be perfect.
 
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Bmdzi1 wrote:
- particularly the use of the pirates/snuggling faction.
snuggling faction... ewoks?
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If You want an expansion, take a look here:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1557147/expansion-star-wars...
 
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Brian Fox
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I've mentioned this before, but I'd love an expansion that used the game components and broad rules but fundamentally changed the nature of the game. It should invert the roles: the Rebels hunt for the secret location of the Death Star plans, while the Empire attempts to complete projects to get the space station online. If the Empire successfully activates the Death Star before the Rebels can locate the plans, the Empire wins. Base the game in the pre-New Hope era, building on the Rogue One hype -- include characters from that movie, as well as some others from the Rebels cartoon. Maybe add a few different ground/space units for the folks who want extra plastic pieces, but I hardly think that would be necessary. Just some ideas: Rebels could get B-Wings and Nebulon-class frigates for space, and maybe "Wookie" pieces representing indigenous allies for ground (there's probably a better idea out there). The Empire could get TIE Bombers and Interdictor-class SD for space, and Scout Troopers on speeder bikes for ground. These types of units could probably have their production tied to project or mission cards, that would also provide them with unique benefits (perhaps Scout Troopers get to make a "free attack" before combat begins, representing their speed).

Ideally, this expansion would have a shorter playtime than the full board game (under two hours), to give folks a compelling reason to play it instead. Players would have the option to use these new heroes and units in a regular Rebellion game as well.
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sionnach19 wrote:


Ideally, this expansion would have a shorter playtime than the full board game (under two hours), to give folks a compelling reason to play it instead. Players would have the option to use these new heroes and units in a regular Rebellion game as well.


Now this is interesting, a short game scenario.
I like the idea.
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I would buy an expansion if it ONLY offered an alternate combat resolution system. Off the top of my head, I'd prefer a system where choices matter and the decisions are not always 100% obvious what should be done, as in the current system. Quicker combats without any of the fiddly cards would be best. Chuck dice, possibly use a 1-time leader ability, and have the dice and/outcomes influenced by leader ground/space stats. SOLD!

 
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Ghorro wrote:
I would buy an expansion if it ONLY offered an alternate combat resolution system. Off the top of my head, I'd prefer a system where choices matter and the decisions are not always 100% obvious what should be done, as in the current system. Quicker combats without any of the fiddly cards would be best. Chuck dice, possibly use a 1-time leader ability, and have the dice and/outcomes influenced by leader ground/space stats. SOLD!



Uh... if you think choices don't matter and that decisions are always 100% obvious then you're not playing combat right.

You don't have the "Destroy a Star Destroyer" card? Well bluff and act like you do. Assign a bunch of hits to a Star Destroyer and trick the empire into trying to escape?

Or maybe you want to focus on their fighters so they don't have as much ability to stop your DSP. Or maybe you want to take out transportation because it limits their scouting ability. Maybe hold onto your cards, make them think you have a block so they over assign hits to a single unit to ensure the kill but play sub optimally.


Seriously the strategy and mind games possible in the card system are endless.
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