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War of the Ring: Warriors of Middle-earth» Forums » Rules

Subject: Dead Men Queries rss

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David Williams
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We had some queries regarding dead men.

At what point do the Dead Men need to stop attacking? The Rules book says you can keep attacking so long as you have dead men left. But the card played stated you can keep attacking so long as you have at least 2 dead men left.

1. So can you normally attack with the last remaining figure or not? Is this an accidental difference, or a deliberate deviation from the rules in which case the card overrules the normal rules? Sadly I don't recall the name of the card that was used.

Secondly, there is a card which lets you place Aragorn/Strider in Erech, then it states "The Dead Men are now in play.". Then it tells you to add 1 Dead Men figure to Erech. We had 2 questions about this:

2a. Is the 1 figure mentioned in addition to the normal setup? We thought yes, and played it that way so they effectively start with 3 figures. I only wonder because the language is a bit odd; it doesn't say "Bring the dead men into play." but simply "The dead men are now in play."

2b. What happens if the Dead Men are already in play? We played it that Aragorn and the remaining Dead Men figures all move to Erech, then added another figure leaving Aragorn in Erech with 2 figures. But I now wonder if Aragorn should have moved alone and the remaining Dead Men should be removed. In which case does the card bring them back into play from scratch, or does it not work (because the faction was effectively eliminated) and Aragorn is moved on his own?


We also had some queries about Dead Men attacking Orthanc (by using the card ability which lets them move through the Mountains to Helm's Deep, Edoras and Westemnet):

3a. When they stop attacking (which apparently can be after just 1 round?) any armies must retreat, and the rules say it must be to an adjacent region. So the army they attacked must move out of Orthanc, not retreat into a siege. Is this right?

3b. Assuming the previous is correct the army must leave Orthanc. However, Saruman cannot do so. So presumably he remains in Orthanc and the rest of the army must retreat. There are no rules about Dead Men eliminating Saruman (as for the Ents, for example) so presumably he survives. Is this correct?

3c. Assuming the situation above, the Dead Men may advance into Orthanc but do not capture it. They also do not prevent the Shadow from just moving back in as their next action to protect their currently empty Stronghold (except for Saruman). But if for some reason they can't, then the FP can walk in and capture. Is this right?

If this is all true then the SP must be very careful the FP do not steal Orthanc if they manage to get a couple of consecutive actions. The FP can also use the same process to recapture a lost Dol Amroth, Pelargir or Minas Tirith.

Or do I have something wrong?

Thanks.
 
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Jason Dexter
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There is a card which allows companions to move under the mountain. But it does not say you can move the dead men under the mountain in to Rohan. I am pretty sure you can't.

So therefore you can't kill Saruman or attack Orthanc without going around. If you did go around, you couldn't kill Saruman unless you eliminated all the army there.

Today I used the same card you did to get the Dead Men in to play. We put 2 figures in to play as the starting lineup and then one more according to the card. I don't think you would ever want to play this card if the Dead Men are already in play, but not in Erech. If they are in Erech, then I think this card would allow you to add one additional dead man.
 
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David Williams
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savedbyhim01 wrote:
There is a card which allows companions to move under the mountain. But it does not say you can move the dead men under the mountain in to Rohan. I am pretty sure you can't.

So therefore you can't kill Saruman or attack Orthanc without going around. If you did go around, you couldn't kill Saruman unless you eliminated all the army there.


OK - you may well be right. I don't have the card to hand and just let my wife do what she thought it allowed. It would make sense since it did seem rather powerful. Will check it when I get home. But they can still reach by going around, so the question is still valid I think.

But other than Saruman, the same questions still apply I think. Dead Men could attack Dol Amroth one time, and the Shadow must retreat. This seems to make Dol Amroth effectively off the table for the Shadow once Dead Men are in play, unless they have completely conquered Gondor and there are no units able to recapture.

Quote:
Today I used the same card you did to get the Dead Men in to play. We put 2 figures in to play as the starting lineup and then one more according to the card. I don't think you would ever want to play this card if the Dead Men are already in play, but not in Erech. If they are in Erech, then I think this card would allow you to add one additional dead man.


She played it to get her army back from Fords of Isen. I think the same could be done to get them back to Erech from Minas Tirith, so the question still applies I think.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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1. You can use the last figure to attack. The Rulebook says that some effects are summarized on the cards and explained in detail in the Rulebook. Effects like the movement and attack of the Dead Men are complex enough that they can't be fully explained in the space available on a card.

2a. Yes.

2b. The Dead Men figures would not be moved, and the Faction would be removed from play. A Faction cannot re-enter play once it has been eliminated.

3a. Correct.

3b. Correct.

3c. Correct.
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David Williams
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Krieghund wrote:
1. You can use the last figure to attack. The Rulebook says that some effects are summarized on the cards and explained in detail in the Rulebook. Effects like the movement and attack of the Dead Men are complex enough that they can't be fully explained in the space available on a card.


I appreciate that, but I think the card was quite explicit, to the point they were contradictory rather than open to interpretation. In which case I would think an erratum/FAQ might be in order. But maybe I'm not recalling correctly - will check the exact wording when I get home.

Quote:
2a. Yes.

2b. The Dead Men figures would not be moved, and the Faction would be removed from play. A Faction cannot re-enter play once it has been eliminated.


OK, that makes sense. I didn't give it much thought at the time.

Quote:
3a. Correct.

3b. Correct.

3c. Correct.


Great, we got those right at least.

Thanks Kevin!
 
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Orion3T wrote:
3a. When they stop attacking (which apparently can be after just 1 round?) any armies must retreat, and the rules say it must be to an adjacent region. So the army they attacked must move out of Orthanc, not retreat into a siege. Is this right?

3b. Assuming the previous is correct the army must leave Orthanc. However, Saruman cannot do so. So presumably he remains in Orthanc and the rest of the army must retreat. There are no rules about Dead Men eliminating Saruman (as for the Ents, for example) so presumably he survives. Is this correct?

3c. Assuming the situation above, the Dead Men may advance into Orthanc but do not capture it. They also do not prevent the Shadow from just moving back in as their next action to protect their currently empty Stronghold (except for Saruman). But if for some reason they can't, then the FP can walk in and capture. Is this right?


I'm still a little confused about this. The rules on page 14 state

"When the attack ends, any surviving units in the attacked Shadow Army must retreat together to an adjacent region - different from the one the attack comes from - following the normal rules for retreat. If the Shadow Army cannot retreat (because it is under siege, or there is no available region) it does not."

The normal rules for retreat allow retreating into a Siege. Is this no longer an option when attacked by the Dead Men? If they were already under siege they could stay there but if they weren't they would have to leave the area. That seems strange.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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They can't retreat into a siege because there is no besieging enemy Army.
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Krieghund wrote:
They can't retreat into a siege because there is no besieging enemy Army.


Thanks.
 
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David Williams
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Krieghund wrote:
1. You can use the last figure to attack. The Rulebook says that some effects are summarized on the cards and explained in detail in the Rulebook. Effects like the movement and attack of the Dead Men are complex enough that they can't be fully explained in the space available on a card.


OK - I found the reference. It's not on a Faction Event card, but on the large Faction Card under special rules:

Quote:
You can repeat either process as long as there is more than one figure in the Army of the Dead.


This seems quite specific, saying you can only attack or move if there is more than 1 figure remaining. And it seems to me to be a direct contradiction of the rules in the book.

I understand that the Faction Card is effectively a player aid, so the rule book should override it in that case. But still, seems this is something that should be clarified for future printings?
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Most likely.
 
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David Williams
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Krieghund wrote:
Most likely.


OK, so you think this is an error on the faction card? I don't see how it can be reconciled but maybe I'm missing something.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Orion3T wrote:
OK, so you think this is an error on the faction card?

I know it is.
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Torben
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Orion3T wrote:
Secondly, there is a card which lets you place Aragorn/Strider in Erech, then it states "The Dead Men are now in play.". Then it tells you to add 1 Dead Men figure to Erech. We had 2 questions about this:
[...]
2b. What happens if the Dead Men are already in play? We played it that Aragorn and the remaining Dead Men figures all move to Erech, then added another figure leaving Aragorn in Erech with 2 figures. But I now wonder if Aragorn should have moved alone and the remaining Dead Men should be removed. In which case does the card bring them back into play from scratch, or does it not work (because the faction was effectively eliminated) and Aragorn is moved on his own?

Krieghund wrote:
[...]
2b. The Dead Men figures would not be moved, and the Faction would be removed from play. A Faction cannot re-enter play once it has been eliminated.

I'm hoping there's been a misunderstanding. The card wants to move Aragorn, enable the Dead Men and add one figure. It can't possibly eliminate the faction, can it?

I think the question was whether to reset existing Dead Men figures including Aragorn to Erech or not. My guess is this is about the card "Paths of the Dead", which is divided into 2 paragraphs. The first one moves Aragorn to Erech and brings the Dead Men into play. The second paragraph recruits one figure in the Army of the Dead and reshuffles discarded Dead Men Faction Cards into the Faction deck. I would ignore the first paragraph, since the Dead Men are already in play, and just follow the second paragraph's instructions.
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Koolin
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If the card says you move Aragorn to Erech and you do that, then the Dead Men faction will be separated from Aragorn and hence it will be eliminated.

I agree it is a weird construction, but I think the card is not intended to be played once the faction is already in play and has already moved.
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Kevin Chapman
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Oddly enough, if the card is played when the Faction is already in play and Strider/Aragorn is not in a Rohan or Gondor region, the first part would not occur and you would simply add a figure to the Army of the Dead and shuffle the expended Dead Men cards back into the deck.

I suspect that the intent is that if the card is played when the Faction is already in play that part one would not occur and part two would regardless of the location of the Army of the Dead, but that's not what it says. We'll need to wait for further clarification from the designers.
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Torben
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Thanks for clearing that up.
 
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Charles Hammer
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Koolin wrote:
If the card says you move Aragorn to Erech and you do that, then the Dead Men faction will be separated from Aragorn and hence it will be eliminated.

I agree it is a weird construction, but I think the card is not intended to be played once the faction is already in play and has already moved.


That's how it seems to be to me, there is at least one faction card with multiple copies that requires you to discard a faction card to draw another one from the discard, so its not like the card becomes entirely useless after the faction is in play.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Krieghund wrote:
I suspect that the intent is that if the card is played when the Faction is already in play that part one would not occur and part two would regardless of the location of the Army of the Dead, but that's not what it says. We'll need to wait for further clarification from the designers.

I have contacted Roberto, and my suspicion was correct. This should be cleared up in the FAQ.
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David Williams
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Krieghund wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
I suspect that the intent is that if the card is played when the Faction is already in play that part one would not occur and part two would regardless of the location of the Army of the Dead, but that's not what it says. We'll need to wait for further clarification from the designers.

I have contacted Roberto, and my suspicion was correct. This should be cleared up in the FAQ.


Thanks for this Kevin.

So if the faction isn't in play, only then does Aragorn move to Erech. If they are in play already, then this just adds 1 Dead Men figure to the Army of the Dead wherever they are. Right?
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Kevin Chapman
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If the Faction is already in play, only the second paragraph takes effect:
Quote:
Recruit one Dead Men figure in the Army of the Dead. Reshuffle all Dead Men Faction Event cards (including this one) from the discard pile into the deck.
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Torben
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Now that we know we may use the last Dead Men figure to attack - does the same apply to the Ents? Using a single remaining Ent figure from Fangorn to attack and afterwards removing the whole faction?
The rules are analogous to the Dead Men: movement as long as there is more than one figure; attack as long as there are figures; immediately remove faction if no figure left in Fangorn/Army of the Dead.
 
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Koolin
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I would say so. The only difference is that the Ents need to be in the Entmoot and not on the board per se (since the Ents make a path). So once there are no more figures in the Entmoot the faction will be "eliminated".
 
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Kevin Chapman
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tatze wrote:
Now that we know we may use the last Dead Men figure to attack - does the same apply to the Ents? Using a single remaining Ent figure from Fangorn to attack and afterwards removing the whole faction?

Yes.
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Is it possible to crown Aragorn (when moving the Army with him to Dol Amroth)? I ask because to crown him you take out Strider of the Game thus fullfilling the Point of disbanding the Army of the Dead and then bring Aragorn in.

Another Point: If the Army is in Dol Amroth and it gets besieged, does the Army (including Strider/Aragorn) really arent involved and just stand there? Looks a little unthematic and from a gaming point of view rather strang.
 
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David Williams
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Nosdasil wrote:
Is it possible to crown Aragorn (when moving the Army with him to Dol Amroth)? I ask because to crown him you take out Strider of the Game thus fullfilling the Point of disbanding the Army of the Dead and then bring Aragorn in.


I don't think so, Aragorn's card says 'replace' not 'eliminate' or 'remove from play' so I think it's simultaneous. All the Dead Men rules refer to Strider/Aragorn so I think they are treated as the same companion for the purposes of Dead Men.

Quote:
Another Point: If the Army is in Dol Amroth and it gets besieged, does the Army (including Strider/Aragorn) really arent involved and just stand there? Looks a little unthematic and from a gaming point of view rather strang.


They do stay in that region rather than go into siege, but they certainly can be involved!

They can play their Call to Battle cards during the combat. And after the army retreats into siege the Dead Men can automatically kick the Shadow army back out of the region just by attacking them once.

Trying to take a stronghold with the Dead Men anywhere near seems like a really rough proposition in this game. At the very least they can kick the Shadow army out once or twice. Of course, they lose Aragorn's leadership and +1 Army Strength in compensation.

The Dead Men seem amazing for defending Dol Amroth and Pelargir, as they should be. I played 2 games with the expansion now and neither time did attacking those locations seem remotely possible while the Dead Men were in Erech.
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