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Subject: Corsairs movement question rss

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Jason Dexter
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Ships of Great Draught says "transport up to two Shadow Armies up to four regions; or transport one Shadow Army up to two regions, and attack with that Army."

Black Sails says "You may use any Faction die result to either recruit one Corsairs figure in Umbar, or move all Corsairs up to four regions."

Can Black Sails be used to transport armies? If not, what is the point of it? It doesn't seem very useful if you can't transport with it. Obviously there would be some cases where you would want to change the location of Corsairs, but transporting is by and large the best use for them.

A Great Fleet also has the same wording "move all Corsairs up to four regions."

Can you transport armies with Great Fleet?

If the answer to those questions is both "no" then Corsairs seem pretty weak. That would me they only have two cards in the deck (Ships of Great Draught) which can actually transport armies and neither one would allow a direct attack on Dol Amroth (making the faction in this game in some ways weaker than the actual card in the base game.)
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Only cards that feature the word "transport" can be used to transport Armies, so "Ships of Great Draught" is the only Event card that allows it. However, repositioning of ships is still very important, as it allows them to move to positions useful both for transporting Armies and for use of their Call to Battle effects, which can be quite powerful.
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Jason Dexter
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Thanks. That is how we played it. The shadow players felt that the free players' factions were much more powerful.

I guess you could use one Ships of Great Draught to move to Lamedon and then one normal army move to attack DA. Perhaps they are more useful for their ability to use a ship to downgrade instead of an elite thus easily prolonging sieges. One would have to have both of the transport cards (or one get back from the discard pile card) to have any chance at moving way up North.
 
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David Williams
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I found the Corsairs very useful for quickly getting reinforcements to Minas Tirith when I didn't have enough army/character dice to move the Sauron reinforcements.

However, that was the only time I did use them. Dead Men entered play which seemed to destroy any chances I had of taking Dol Amroth. And they cannot transport units past regions containing FP units so a long range strike on Grey Havens, for example, did not seem on the cards.

I only had 1 game so far, however I did feel like the Shadow factions are not as outwardly strong as the FP factions. Maybe they need to be seen as more expendable than units, as I still had a lot of them left at the end of the game.

It didn't help that I rolled an Eye with the faction die several rounds in a row, so I struggled to mobilise them after the first few rounds.
 
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Jason Dexter
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"And they cannot transport units past regions containing FP units so a long range strike on Grey Havens, for example, did not seem on the cards."

I believe they can.
 
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David Williams
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savedbyhim01 wrote:
"And they cannot transport units past regions containing FP units so a long range strike on Grey Havens, for example, did not seem on the cards."

I believe they can.


I don't think so - p22 'Transporting an Army' states:

Quote:
The Corsairs and the Army can move together up to 4 regions (adhering to the normal restrictions applicable to armies)


The 'normal restrictions' so far as I'm aware includes not moving through regions containing enemy armies, because they are not 'free for the purposes of army movement'. Rules p27 defines that term as not containing enemy Army units.
 
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Charles Hammer
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Orion3T wrote:
savedbyhim01 wrote:
"And they cannot transport units past regions containing FP units so a long range strike on Grey Havens, for example, did not seem on the cards."

I believe they can.


I don't think so - p22 'Transporting an Army' states:

Quote:
The Corsairs and the Army can move together up to 4 regions (adhering to the normal restrictions applicable to armies)


The 'normal restrictions' so far as I'm aware includes not moving through regions containing enemy armies, because they are not 'free for the purposes of army movement'. Rules p27 defines that term as not containing enemy Army units.


We never really double checked everything with the print manual, but the online manual says

Quote:
The Corsairs and the Army can move together up to 4 regions (adhering to the normal restrictions applicable to armies as well as the applicable to Corsairs)


Which made us think Corsairs could transport past FP armies like Pel to attack Dol Amroth first since they are going by sea. Otherwise Corsairs are pretty much relegated to transporting reinforcements quickly.

The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?
 
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David Williams
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Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
I don't think so - p22 'Transporting an Army' states:

Quote:
The Corsairs and the Army can move together up to 4 regions (adhering to the normal restrictions applicable to armies)


The 'normal restrictions' so far as I'm aware includes not moving through regions containing enemy armies, because they are not 'free for the purposes of army movement'. Rules p27 defines that term as not containing enemy Army units.


We never really double checked everything with the print manual, but the online manual says

Quote:
The Corsairs and the Army can move together up to 4 regions (adhering to the normal restrictions applicable to armies as well as the applicable to Corsairs)


Which made us think Corsairs could transport past FP armies like Pel to attack Dol Amroth first since they are going by sea. Otherwise Corsairs are pretty much relegated to transporting reinforcements quickly.

The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?[/q]

That's the same quote, I just cut it off before the last bit because I don't see how it negates the requirement to adhere to the normal restrictions for army movement.

If you allow them to move past enemy armies, then they are not adhering to the normal restrictions for army movement.

This makes sense for the river movements, but I do find this a bit odd in the case of travelling by sea (i.e. Gondor coastal regions) especially since this means you apparently cannot do what the old card allowed.

So I agree with you on the balance perspective, and would even go so far as to say I hope you're right as the Corsairs while potentially powerful felt quite restricted by this caveat. But I still think this is the only interpretation possible.
 
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Kevin Chapman
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Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?

Neither overrides the other, as both apply. While the original "Corsairs of Umbar" allowed bypassing enemy Armies, it was a one-time event. It was felt that allowing this multiple times in a game would be overpowered, so Corsairs may only do it while not transporting an Army.
 
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Stephen Lovell
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Krieghund wrote:
Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?

Neither overrides the other, as both apply. While the original "Corsairs of Umbar" allowed bypassing enemy Armies, it was a one-time event. It was felt that allowing this multiple times in a game would be overpowered, so Corsairs may only do it while not transporting an Army.


So the Corsairs cannot move "through" regions containing FP armies while they are transporting armies, even they they're supposedly traveling by sea? This seems like a time where lore should override rules, especially considering there are only two cards allowing transport.
 
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David Williams
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tehgr8supa wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?

Neither overrides the other, as both apply. While the original "Corsairs of Umbar" allowed bypassing enemy Armies, it was a one-time event. It was felt that allowing this multiple times in a game would be overpowered, so Corsairs may only do it while not transporting an Army.


So the Corsairs cannot move "through" regions containing FP armies while they are transporting armies, even they they're supposedly traveling by sea? This seems like a time where lore should override rules, especially considering there are only two cards allowing transport.


I don't entirely disagree, but it's worth remembering they don't only travel by sea, they also travel up river to Osgiliath and even Minas Tirith, and potentially back again. I don't think that should be something they can do entirely freely. That said, the river travel is actually easier than sea travel because they can use Osgiliath, which will rarely have FP armies in it.

There might only be 2 Faction cards which do it but they can be cycled multiple times. Also, it's not just from Umbar to Dol Amroth but possibly from Minas Tirith to Pelargir, Pelargir to Dol Amroth.

I do sort of feel like there should be some chance to do it, even if it remained a single Event card. But I can definitely see why it could cause issues, so I think we have to trust the designers and play testers that the factions we have are reasonably balanced.

Perhaps thematically we should be imagining that at least some of the units in Pelargir and Dol Amroth are light sea-faring troops, possibly using the sea as well. Nothing as strong as the Corsairs, but enough to stop them from moving unhindered.
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Charles Hammer
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tehgr8supa wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?

Neither overrides the other, as both apply. While the original "Corsairs of Umbar" allowed bypassing enemy Armies, it was a one-time event. It was felt that allowing this multiple times in a game would be overpowered, so Corsairs may only do it while not transporting an Army.


So the Corsairs cannot move "through" regions containing FP armies while they are transporting armies, even they they're supposedly traveling by sea? This seems like a time where lore should override rules, especially considering there are only two cards allowing transport.


I agree, but I can see why they kept it this way. I would of liked to see it where Corsairs could transport by sea, but if they wanted to ship units into Osgiliath, they would of had to take Pelargir first as transporting troops up rivers can be dangerous if they are defended. This does just complicate the rules though.

For me at least Corsairs will likely be a lesser used faction or not summoned until later on in the game when extra mustering is available. Unless I roll a lot of muster or draw some easterling cards. That not exactly a bad thing though.
 
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Jason Dexter
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I'm actually thinking it might be worth it to put SE at war early and quickly get Corsairs and launch an assault on Gondor before the Dead Men can be summoned.
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David Williams
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savedbyhim01 wrote:
I'm actually thinking it might be worth it to put SE at war early and quickly get Corsairs and launch an assault on Gondor before the Dead Men can be summoned.


Yes, me too - the Corsairs could mean you can capture or at least besiege Dol Amroth within the first turn.

The key would be to make sure you cover both Gondor strongholds without any way for Gondor to recapture. The Dead Men make it very easy for the FP to recapture even a stronghold if they can somehow get 2 consecutive actions; if they can get a unit adjacent then attack even once with the Dead Men, then they can immediately recapture the stronghold.

In fact it seems to me the Dead Men are most useful for their ability to force a retreat rather than the damage they can do (which can also be very powerful of course).
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Charles Hammer
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Orion3T wrote:

In fact it seems to me the Dead Men are most useful for their ability to force a retreat rather than the damage they can do (which can also be very powerful of course).


I'd agree with this, if SP doesn't have a movement for their last die you can potentially force them to retreat then muster on your stronghold/fortress first thing next turn.


Orion3T wrote:
savedbyhim01 wrote:
I'm actually thinking it might be worth it to put SE at war early and quickly get Corsairs and launch an assault on Gondor before the Dead Men can be summoned.


Yes, me too - the Corsairs could mean you can capture or at least besiege Dol Amroth within the first turn.


The action dice do have to favor you for this though. You'd need three mustering die to bring corsairs into play. Then you need a flag movement die to put seven units and three corsairs (from Umbar/Near Harad) south of Pelargir. A flag movement die to hit Pelargir (lets assume you score a hit and FP player doesn't) and a palantir or flag movement die to play the ships of great draught faction card to besiege Dol Amroth (with six units). After you hit Pelargir its likely that the FP player musters an elite on Dol Amroth. So your now you have a besieged Dol Amroth that's three gondor regular units, one elite unit vs five easterling regular units, one elite unit and three corsairs. That's enough to besiege Dol Amroth, but is unlikely to take it. You can however move more units on to Pelargir and use the corsairs call to battle card to bring them to Dol Amroth. If you didn't put an eye in the hunt pool or didn't roll an eye you could perhaps bring four nazgul if you had a character unit or muster an elite unit on Umbar before you moved. This plan has put Gondor to war and lets FP muster freely on Minas Tirith until you can besiege it near the end of next turn or perhaps third turn if you focus on taking Dol Amroth right away.

This is actually a decent outcome if your just playing with the base game + WoME. Its a very good plan if your trying to deny Gandalf the White for as long as possible. I think its quite possible that you will take Dol Amroth on turn two over a series of battles if you bring your Nazgul in and play a deadly strife card. The most common FP player counter would be separating Strider to Helms Deep by the end of turn two and mustering the army of the dead, but that will take two or three actions. This won't do much if you can take Dol Amroth in your first or second action.

A different plan is muster Saruman and the Dunlanding faction in play for three mustering and had them attack the fords of Isen or setup to do this next turn. I'd favor this just because it adds one more action die. If your playing with LoME you could of grabbed Saruman and the Balrog or perhaps the Witch King/Spider faction if the fellowship was revealed off of Imladris. Perhaps I just value my extra action die too much.
 
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David Williams
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Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
Orion3T wrote:

In fact it seems to me the Dead Men are most useful for their ability to force a retreat rather than the damage they can do (which can also be very powerful of course).


I'd agree with this, if SP doesn't have a movement for their last die you can potentially force them to retreat then muster on your stronghold/fortress first thing next turn.


Even if they had captured it and you cannot muster there, if they have any armmy units adjacent the Shadow cannot consider it 'safe'. But you're right that relieving a siege this way is great, especially if you can muster on your next action and force them to take it again.


Orion3T wrote:
savedbyhim01 wrote:
I'm actually thinking it might be worth it to put SE at war early and quickly get Corsairs and launch an assault on Gondor before the Dead Men can be summoned.


Yes, me too - the Corsairs could mean you can capture or at least besiege Dol Amroth within the first turn.


The action dice do have to favor you for this though. You'd need three mustering die to bring corsairs into play. Then you need a flag movement die to put seven units and three corsairs (from Umbar/Near Harad) south of Pelargir. A flag movement die to hit Pelargir (lets assume you score a hit and FP player doesn't) and a palantir or flag movement die to play the ships of great draught faction card to besiege Dol Amroth (with six units). After you hit Pelargir its likely that the FP player musters an elite on Dol Amroth. So your now you have a besieged Dol Amroth that's three gondor regular units, one elite unit vs five easterling regular units, one elite unit and three corsairs. That's enough to besiege Dol Amroth, but is unlikely to take it. You can however move more units on to Pelargir and use the corsairs call to battle card to bring them to Dol Amroth. If you didn't put an eye in the hunt pool or didn't roll an eye you could perhaps bring four nazgul if you had a character unit or muster an elite unit on Umbar before you moved. This plan has put Gondor to war and lets FP muster freely on Minas Tirith until you can besiege it near the end of next turn or perhaps third turn if you focus on taking Dol Amroth right away.

This is actually a decent outcome if your just playing with the base game + WoME. Its a very good plan if your trying to deny Gandalf the White for as long as possible. I think its quite possible that you will take Dol Amroth on turn two over a series of battles if you bring your Nazgul in and play a deadly strife card. The most common FP player counter would be separating Strider to Helms Deep by the end of turn two and mustering the army of the dead, but that will take two or three actions. This won't do much if you can take Dol Amroth in your first or second action.[/q]

The point is to secure Dol Amroth and Pelargir before the FP can get the Dead Men into play, so they cannot use the dead men to take it back. Minas Tirith is a little further afield for them but sure, the dead men can still make that difficult.

Quote:
A different plan is muster Saruman and the Dunlanding faction in play for three mustering and had them attack the fords of Isen or setup to do this next turn. I'd favor this just because it adds one more action die. If your playing with LoME you could of grabbed Saruman and the Balrog or perhaps the Witch King/Spider faction if the fellowship was revealed off of Imladris. Perhaps I just value my extra action die too much.


This is actually wat I did - the Ents came into play before I could even muster any actual army units in Orthanc, and what little I managed to build up never amounted to anything as the Ents were always too much of a threat (and at one point nearly took out Saruman).

Taking the Fords of Isen makes it easier for Ents to decimate your army because they don't even need to move first.

Not saying it's bad, but I tried it and it didn't work out on that occasion!

Definitely a case of 'more plays required'. And I welcome them.
 
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Raf B
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tehgr8supa wrote:
Krieghund wrote:
Charles_the_Hammer wrote:
The rules are a bit confusing there though since Corsairs would be able to bypass it and armies wouldn't, but they both are applying so which one overrides the other one?

Neither overrides the other, as both apply. While the original "Corsairs of Umbar" allowed bypassing enemy Armies, it was a one-time event. It was felt that allowing this multiple times in a game would be overpowered, so Corsairs may only do it while not transporting an Army.


So the Corsairs cannot move "through" regions containing FP armies while they are transporting armies, even they they're supposedly traveling by sea? This seems like a time where lore should override rules, especially considering there are only two cards allowing transport.

Since you bring up lore, in the novels (IIRC) the Corsairs make it as far as Pelargir before Aragorn leads the Army of the Dead against them. I think years of playing the base game event card has created the expectation that Dol Amroth should be the default target for the Corsairs. What the Corsairs' WoME movement rules do is force the Free Peoples to consider how to defend Pelargir, which was sometimes less of a consideration in the base game.
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