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Exceed: Red Horizon – Reese & Heidi vs. Vincent & Nehtali» Forums » Rules

Subject: Using Gauge as Force rss

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Migs
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Does using Gauge as force count as spending gauge? I was playing a game with Zoey and her Exceed ability kinda touches on that but I do not know the answer.


 
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Scott Armstrong
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Yes. Although the Rules section on Force is ambiguous about this ("discard any number of cards from your Gauge area"), the section on Gauge is clear ("Gauge can also be spent as Force").

Neo Cosmic Flare in particular seems to be balanced around Zoey's ability to do that, because she can spend from Gauge to generate Force, and then spend those same cards from her hand to generate additional Force.
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Migs
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Thanks! This is what I was thinking but it seemed very strong. I guess thats the nature of most exceed upgraded abilities =)


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Quote:
she can spend from Gauge to generate Force, and then spend those same cards from her hand to generate additional Force

Yes, but not immediately. It turns out you "declare" all the cards you want to spend for Force simultaneously. Then all the cards in your Gauge that you used for Force go back into your hand. So you can't double-spend cards from Gauge for Force.

Source: L99 communication and Ayasenpai
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Scott Armstrong
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tankbard wrote:
Source: L99 communication and Ayasenpai


Link?
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Skype.
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Scott Armstrong
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tankbard wrote:
Skype.


That makes it kind of difficult to assess how authoritative your answer is!

Did the conversation specifically mention Zoey's Exceed Ability, or are you applying a broader rule?

Being required to declare your Force-spending in advance would not, in itself, prevent you from double-spending - you could easily enough declare "I'm going to spend both Sweeps from my Gauge and both Sweeps from my hand" as Zoey and still satisfy that requirement, unless you're also specifically required to have those Sweeps in your hand at the time of your declaration.
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Quote:
That makes it kind of difficult to assess how authoritative your answer is!

It is 5 authoritative.
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Did the conversation specifically mention Zoey's Exceed Ability, or are you applying a broader rule?

The question was specifically about Zoey's ability, and the ruling given was generalized in a way that will inform future decisions.
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Being required to declare your Force-spending in advance would not, in itself, prevent you from double-spending - you could easily enough declare "I'm going to spend both Sweeps from my Gauge and both Sweeps from my hand" as Zoey and still satisfy that requirement, unless you're also specifically required to have those Sweeps in your hand at the time of your declaration.

Ctrl+F Then
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Scott Armstrong
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Okay, but I'm still not clear on how one "declares" which cards to spend on Force. Is this an oral declaration, then? If you're spending 12 Force, are you required to then say the name of every card that you're going to use as Force, and specify whether it's from Hand or from Gauge?

If it's an oral declaration, then there's no mechanism to ensure that this "declare" rule was actually adhered to. You could easily say "I'm spending the Sweep from my hand and the Sweep from my Gauge," and then spend the card from your Gauge first in order to return it to your Hand, and then spend the same card. You could do so in a tournament setting and your opponent might never discover that unless they quickly do a Parry or Reading.

Quote:
Ctrl+F Then


Your answer to that seems to be that Zoey's cards return Hand after she's finished generating Force, but return from where? According to her Exceed-mode text, they go straight to her hand whenever she spends Gauge. She may be required to declare the cards she's spending "simultaneously," but the notion of a simultaneous discard in Exceed is nonsense - players are expressly forbidden from rearranging their Discards, so order matters. It would seem to necessarily follow that you generate Force one card at a time - placing them, in order, into Discard. For Zoey, then, she generates one Force at a time, either moving cards from Gauge to Discard (which, because of her Exceed ability, means Gauge to Hand), or Hand to Discard.

Which leads to my point that it seems like there would have to be a rule that expressly requires Zoey's player to only declare spending cards from Hand that she actually has in-Hand at the time - a rule which is weirdly specific, cumbersome, and difficult to enforce.

Could you please clarify what this simultaneous declaration entails?
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Andre Pickens
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tankbard wrote:
Quote:
she can spend from Gauge to generate Force, and then spend those same cards from her hand to generate additional Force

Yes, but not immediately. It turns out you "declare" all the cards you want to spend for Force simultaneously. Then all the cards in your Gauge that you used for Force go back into your hand. So you can't double-spend cards from Gauge for Force.

Source: L99 communication and Ayasenpai


This is correct. You cannot double spend though i can understand the misunderstanding. But tank has the right interpretation of the rules.
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Scott Armstrong
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Quote:
You cannot double spend though i can understand the misunderstanding. But tank has the right interpretation of the rules.


The interpretation of which rules, though? Are they in the rulebook, or some kind of new Errata? Don't leave me in suspense!
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Jared Voshall
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Perhaps this should be filed under don't be a goit. You're trying to get double the effect from a single card, and are trying to manipulate circumstances to support your case. In short, when you declare what you're using to generate Force, you cannot declare a card from your Gauge then declare that same card from your hand, because at the time you are declaring the Force that you will use, those cards are not in your hand. Simple, straightforward, and pretty generic, no special ruling's needed. And, it applies any character that may add cards to their hand during an action without needing any special wording above and beyond what's already in the rules.
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Joshua Van Laningham
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To give an authoritative answer: Yes, using Gauge as force counts as spending gauge.
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Scott Armstrong
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Quote:
And, it applies any character that may add cards to their hand during an action without needing any special wording above and beyond what's already in the rules.


That's kind of begging the question, though. "When you declare what you're using to generate Force" already presupposes the existence of some kind of Force-declaration rule, which (i) doesn't appear anywhere in the rulebook and (ii) has various potential pitfalls, some of which I've outlined above.

Those potential pitfalls depend on how, exactly, this declaration rule is worded.

I actually agree that Zoey probably shouldn't be allowed to double-spend. My frustration, here, is that this interpretations seems to flow from a rule that doesn't "exist" yet in any official capacity.

Simply put, I'm happy to follow the rules, but I'm sad that I don't know what the rules are.
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This is the timing question that got brought up in channel. The resolution was that in order to generate Force one must indicate (or declare, or whatever; these are common verbs, don't get so damn excited) which cards one is using to do so, and these cards may come from either hand or Gauge (and in the former case, Ultimate cards generate 2 Force). The problem of how to actually prove one possesses an alleged card in hand is left as an exercise to the reader. Then all cards used to generate Force go into discard in an order of their owner's choosing. Zoey's UA introduces an interrupt which causes cards that came from her Gauge to return to her player's hand instead. ("Hand" here refers to the formal gameplay area. For example, the act of picking up a card in one's Gauge is not adding it to one's hand, even though one's hand is probably the body part used for this purpose. Do not call a tournament judge over when a non-Zoey player does this. It's legal.)
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Scott Armstrong
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(By contrast, I'd be perfectly happy with "here's some errata - Exceed-Mode Zoey sets aside any spent Gauge until she's finished generating Force, and then returns the set-aside cards to her Hand." That answer would be much better than offhandedly rewriting the core game's Force rules so that you "declare" Force in advance instead of "generate" it through any combination of Force-generating activities.)
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Scott Armstrong
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tankbard wrote:
For example, the act of picking up a card in one's Gauge is not adding it to one's hand, even though one's hand is probably the body part used for this purpose.


Wait... I'm not supposed to use my teeth?
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Brad Talton
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So, when you use an effect that spends Force, you declare how much force you are spending, then you generate that force.

So Zoey can declare that she's spending 8 Force, then she has to generate it. She spends 4 from her Gauge, and 4 from her hand. At this point, the spent cards go to her discard pile. However, instead of the cards spent from Gauge going to discard, they go to her hand.

Assuming she only has 4 cards in hand and 4 in Gauge in this example, she could not declare '12', because the 4 cards in her Gauge do not move to her hand until after they are spent, and she has to make her payment all at once.
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