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Subject: How do the heroes ever win in 7 Sins? rss

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Chris Smallwood
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My girlfriend and I have played five sessions of 7 Sins and every single time the heroes get destroyed.

We have combed through these forums and have tried many different ideas and strategies with the heroes and yet we still cannot seem to win with them.

We are at the point that we are going to be considering handicapping the monsters in order to see if we can somehow balance the game.

Are other players having the same issue? What are some things that you have been doing? Are there balance issues or are we doing something wrong?
 
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William Chew
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I have only played as the Sins player and have won half the time.

Heroes seem to do well with.

-Making sure to use city actions to gear up, orbital laser, and heal
-Take damage by moving through monsters to move ahead toward the objectives
-Take a lot of corruption for the benefits it provides
-Sacrifice heroes when it makes sense to.
-Disrupt Sin player from turtling.
-Don't forget to cleanse
-Don't forget to use the trams

The heroes usually have at least twice as many actions as the sin player. They need to balance pushing towards the objective and keeping up with cleansing and killing monsters as well. Also keeping an eye on future objectives.
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Jason Peacock
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Using the ranged fighters is huge. You get a couple upgrades and take some corruption with a "first strike" attack and it swings the balance.

Regards,

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Andrii Chabykin
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Use heroes for their roles and abilities. Do not start with Bruisers unless you have to fight big boss right away.

Remember - upgrades do not add +500% dmg, its the corrupted hero who can strike hard.
 
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Jason Rupp
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Are the same players playing the same side each time! Maybe one of the players just vastly outskills the other? I've had convincing victories on each side.
 
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Kevin Berent
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JaspeLoedm wrote:
Using the ranged fighters is huge. You get a couple upgrades and take some corruption with a "first strike" attack and it swings the balance.

Regards,



I only have a few games under my belt, and we have NOT been impressed with the ranged attack. It seems to be good for the first round, and then is rarely used as what we need to do is usually inside one of the districts.
 
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CK Lai
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Berentski wrote:
JaspeLoedm wrote:
Using the ranged fighters is huge. You get a couple upgrades and take some corruption with a "first strike" attack and it swings the balance.

Regards,



I only have a few games under my belt, and we have NOT been impressed with the ranged attack. It seems to be good for the first round, and then is rarely used as what we need to do is usually inside one of the districts.


Most of the time, the Sins player will spawn new monsters outdoors since the spawn points indoors are always maxed out. This is ideal for ranged heroes to take out Abominations before they can be moved into districts. I've even managed to take out the Avatars twice, because they couldn't immediately spawn indoors and Rocco managed to get the advantages of max corruption.

So even deciding where to take out monsters is a tactical decision. Leave the monsters in districts alone (unless you NEED to clear them out) so the Sins player is forced to spawn outdoors.
 
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Tyrone ..................
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I'm with the OP, I've yet to win as the heroes either.
 
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Richard Keene
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I’ve played four times; heroes have won three times, sin once. Most games have come down to a very close finish though.

The tactic that seems to work best is to setup multiple objectives to cascade into each other. Since a new objective begins as soon as a previous one ends it’s occasionally possible to complete two in a single round. Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.

Heroes that can either move other heroes or move monsters have been the MVPs in our games.
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Paul Glickman
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lordnine wrote:
Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.



I haven't received my copy yet, but this is so far the thing I hate most about the game. It just seems really annoying and poorly designed.
 
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Mark Blasco

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Paul G wrote:
lordnine wrote:
Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.



I haven't received my copy yet, but this is so far the thing I hate most about the game. It just seems really annoying and poorly designed.


Interesting, because this is one of the things I think is smart about the game design. By limiting the special abilities of the acolytes to when they are dead, you give the heroes an incentive to leave them alone. By making them weak, you give the heroes an incentive to take them out and clear out the board. It makes it more of an interesting decision.
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Kevin Rush
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lordnine wrote:
Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.

Is there a clarification somewhere saying you can't use their abilities if none of them are dead? I have used it several times when all 6 were on the board, I lose out on the summoning but sometimes getting their unique ability is worth it, especially at the beginning of a round.
 
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Jason Peacock
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It is in the rulebook. I had to delve into it for an answer. If there are none dead, their ability can't be used.
 
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Lance Perro
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I've played 3 times now and the Heroes won each time (1 close, 2 landslides). There were different hero/sin player combinations each time. As long as the Heroes stick to the mission objectives for the first terror story, it seems nearly impossible for Sin to win. They can basically complete their first two objectives in the first round with little resistance. Afterwards, killing the 4 marked monsters should be easy even if the Sin decides to turtle in a district.

What I'd like to know is how can the sin player slow the heroes down in that first terror story?

 
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Paul Glickman
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markblasco wrote:
Paul G wrote:
lordnine wrote:
Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.



I haven't received my copy yet, but this is so far the thing I hate most about the game. It just seems really annoying and poorly designed.


Interesting, because this is one of the things I think is smart about the game design. By limiting the special abilities of the acolytes to when they are dead, you give the heroes an incentive to leave them alone. By making them weak, you give the heroes an incentive to take them out and clear out the board. It makes it more of an interesting decision.


But "should we kill monsters or avoid it because it's better for the opponent" isn't an interesting thematic decision. It's... Gamey and anti immersive.
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Jason Rupp
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Paul G wrote:
markblasco wrote:
Paul G wrote:
lordnine wrote:
Also, sometimes it’s best not to kill Acolytes, they are low threat and if they aren’t dead, the sin player can’t use their special ability.



I haven't received my copy yet, but this is so far the thing I hate most about the game. It just seems really annoying and poorly designed.


Interesting, because this is one of the things I think is smart about the game design. By limiting the special abilities of the acolytes to when they are dead, you give the heroes an incentive to leave them alone. By making them weak, you give the heroes an incentive to take them out and clear out the board. It makes it more of an interesting decision.


But "should we kill monsters or avoid it because it's better for the opponent" isn't an interesting thematic decision. It's... Gamey and anti immersive.


If you play a good sin player you won't really have this choice anyway. You just move one on to the heroes so they either have to all take a wound moving away or ignore it.

Thematically it's fine. What's wrong with the sin getting more powerful if he's able to corrupt humans so much that the survivors slaughter them? Sounds extremely thematic to me. The acoyltes are the most human of all the sin monsters.
 
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Paul Glickman
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Why is there a strangely finite number of acolytes? 6 at a time, ever! But as soon as you kill one, a new one will take its place, bringing a sweet bonus for the bad guys.

It... Makes no sense. Should have included 2 extra acolytes and balanced around that.
 
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Sammy
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Paul G wrote:
Why is there a strangely finite number of acolytes? 6 at a time, ever! But as soon as you kill one, a new one will take its place, bringing a sweet bonus for the bad guys.

It... Makes no sense. Should have included 2 extra acolytes and balanced around that.


??

They are only summoned if the Sins player has not already used the Acolyte ability that round. the Sins player can't just re-spawn them as soon as they die... at least that's not something I have ever done when playing the Sin. You want to use the Acolyte ability when you need it...not for sh*ts & giggles.

I'm not sure I'm grasping what you are saying...have you played the game? Am I playing things wrong?
 
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Paul Glickman
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You're playing it right, you're misunderstanding me - the players shouldn't kill any Acolytes, because it turns out there are exactly 6 acolytes in the world, unless one dies, because they're then instantly replaced (once a round). It just doesn't make any thematic sense whatsoever, and is a dumb decision to have be such a big part of the game.
 
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Sammy
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^^ You don't always have the choice to avoid killing Acolytes...especially if you can't be taking any more damage by leaving spaces with monsters.

Yes, the Sin re-spawns them...isn't that the point? another bastard thing for our heroes to deal with? laugh
 
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Jason Rupp
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Paul G wrote:
You're playing it right, you're misunderstanding me - the players shouldn't kill any Acolytes, because it turns out there are exactly 6 acolytes in the world, unless one dies, because they're then instantly replaced (once a round). It just doesn't make any thematic sense whatsoever, and is a dumb decision to have be such a big part of the game.


I don't understand your thematic issue. The sin only has the power to control 6 acolytes at a time. When he can summon one during the middle of the fight, the surprise gives the acolyte an additional ability. What's the issue?
 
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Paul Glickman
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rrrrupp wrote:
Paul G wrote:
You're playing it right, you're misunderstanding me - the players shouldn't kill any Acolytes, because it turns out there are exactly 6 acolytes in the world, unless one dies, because they're then instantly replaced (once a round). It just doesn't make any thematic sense whatsoever, and is a dumb decision to have be such a big part of the game.


I don't understand your thematic issue. The sin only has the power to control 6 acolytes at a time. When he can summon one during the middle of the fight, the surprise gives the acolyte an additional ability. What's the issue?


Imagine it from the perspective of a character in the game. Say you're Karl.

"I should kill this Acolyte! Wait, but if I do, he'll immediately be replaced AND do something bad! I suppose I won't kill him, since killing him accomplishes nothing and makes me worse off."

That is not a decision that makes sense. It's not that Acolytes do things when they arrive, it's that killing one is WORSE than not killing one in many situations. That's not good design.
 
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Flavio Santos
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Paul G wrote:
rrrrupp wrote:
Paul G wrote:
You're playing it right, you're misunderstanding me - the players shouldn't kill any Acolytes, because it turns out there are exactly 6 acolytes in the world, unless one dies, because they're then instantly replaced (once a round). It just doesn't make any thematic sense whatsoever, and is a dumb decision to have be such a big part of the game.


I don't understand your thematic issue. The sin only has the power to control 6 acolytes at a time. When he can summon one during the middle of the fight, the surprise gives the acolyte an additional ability. What's the issue?


Imagine it from the perspective of a character in the game. Say you're Karl.

"I should kill this Acolyte! Wait, but if I do, he'll immediately be replaced AND do something bad! I suppose I won't kill him, since killing him accomplishes nothing and makes me worse off."

That is not a decision that makes sense. It's not that Acolytes do things when they arrive, it's that killing one is WORSE than not killing one in many situations. That's not good design.


There are dozens of monsters in literature that get worse when you kill them. They multiply, they come back stronger, they grow an extra head. Lots and lots of examples.

This is just one more example.

Your dislike of the mechanic does not make it a bad design. Also, not killing something that will come back stronger does make sense.
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Paul Glickman
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It won't come back stronger, and only exactly the 6th Acolyte is like that. Once one acolyte is dead, you can kill as many as you want.

It is bad design, assuming "don't kill acolytes" is a viable strategy. It also makes the sins player unable to use one of their major powers.
 
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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Paul G wrote:
It won't come back stronger, and only exactly the 6th Acolyte is like that. Once one acolyte is dead, you can kill as many as you want.

It is bad design, assuming "don't kill acolytes" is a viable strategy. It also makes the sins player unable to use one of their major powers.


One of the most important parts of this discussion is the idea that, as you have noted, you haven't played the game yet.

Let's look at the Hobo Acolytes. When they pop into a fight, they choose one of the heroes cards and turn it face down, for 1 turn. So be it equipment or a skill, the hero loses it's power...for one turn. If the Sin player could spam it, as you suggest, this would turn equipment cards useless.

To be clear, their is much going against the heroe's as is, especially in the early goings.

But now you feel their is no incentive than to kill one of these acolytes for fear of their power. But their is. They add 2 dice to a fight. When a hero attacks, he fights ALL the monsters in his space. Most heroes START the game with 2-3 fight dice (before corruption/equipment cards). So it's already hard for the heroes to kill anything. But it's plenty easy for the heroes to get killed when one Acolyte and one Abomination are rolling twice as much fight dice as a hero. And guess whose easier to kill? The Acolyte. The abilities of the Acolytes are a minor annoyance, it's the 2 fight dice to be feared. So that's the incentive to kill Acolytes. They are easier to put down and take away 2 fight dice.

Heroes NEED corruption AND equipment cards to have a chance. The Hobo ability would nerf them to uselessness if it was a constant use ability. They would actually become more powerful than the Sins.

So, in game mechanics speak: The 'one-shot' ability of the Acolytes is a balance mechanism to off-set their lower health. Since they are easier to kill, and removing 2 fight dice is a big swing in the Heroes favor, they are typically going down BEFORE the Abominations.

In the early game, Acolytes are really the only enemy you can take down, the other monsters are too tough. And you really don't have the luxury of NOT killing anything, since the Sins player could create big bottlenecks if you don't.

Jorune
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