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Subject: Targeting ATG crew if TH missed the ATG, revisited rss

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Scott B
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The original post is here and the general consensus was you need to hit the gun to effect the crew. I want to clarify this in SQLA conventions and am interested in opinions.

I wanted to throw out the idea of 'double jeopardy', that a unit can not be at risk twice from one attack. So if your resolving something on the IFT or TH table, you can only effect once. I don't know of any rule in the system that would require a unit to take two MCs for one dice roll on the IFT or TH tables.

The germane sections of 48.2:
Quote:
The gun crew is affected only by fire resolved on the Infantry Fire Table. The same dice roll used to obtain the hit on the gun on the TO HIT TABLE is modified by +2 on the Infantry Fire Table to determine the effect on the crew...All units firing at ATG on the TO HIT TABLE (33.33) must use the "AT Gun" row of that table.


Quote:
If other units are in the same hex with the AT Gun the same dice roll used to attack the AT Gun is modified for any effect it might have on other units in the hex.


The example shows a TO HIT roll of '7' missing the ATG but hitting a squad and the gun crew.

I feel its clear the crew is only effected by a hit on the gun and the example is wrong to effect the crew. I think this is the point of confusion. If i follow the idea of 'no double jeopardy' then the conclusion seems to be the Example is wrong.

Assume in the above example instead of rolling a '7' i roll a '4'. The gun is hit and the crew is resolved on the IFT as a '6' ('4' + '2' gun shield). Then, according to the example, it is again effected as an 'other unit' and suffers another IFT roll - lets say of '3' totaling '8' ('3' + '2' gun shield + '3' building). I don't see any exception that would prevent the crew from being effected twice. I think this is inequitable and would rather apply no double jeopardy.

AS players we can see the ATG counter on the board so we know where it is. In reality, they were difficult to spot from a buttoned up AFV and often could fire several times before being spotted. Keeping the TH numbers low for gun and crew reflects the difficulty of spotting the gun in game terms.

So if you were playing a SQLA tournament and this was used against you, would you think its a reasonable position and if not how would you argue against it?
 
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craig grinnell
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sbramley1967 wrote:

Assume in the above example instead of rolling a '7' i roll a '4'. The gun is hit and the crew is resolved on the IFT as a '6' ('4' + '2' gun shield). Then, according to the example, it is again effected as an 'other unit' and suffers another IFT roll - lets say of '3' totaling '8' ('3' + '2' gun shield + '3' building). I don't see any exception that would prevent the crew from being effected twice. I think this is inequitable and would rather apply no double jeopardy.



I fully respect your thoughts and opinions on this game system, but I think you may be over thinking this one. I treat the crew of an AT gun more or less like the crew of a vehicle. They are only affected by a "gun" hit when using direct fire. And if hit, they only get hit once, not as an "other unit" in the hex.

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Scott B
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Quote:
They are only affected by a "gun" hit when using direct fire. And if hit, they only get hit once, not as an "other unit" in the hex.


Thanks, i agree with you.

i agree its overthinking but i want to provide a reasonable justification in the SQLA conventions. At WBC, everybody has their own slightly different take on the rules, some will argue shell size and small gun shield and yada-yada. Hopefully this prevents it.

'cause sure enough when i'm there next year, i'll be the guy trying to explain why the '7' doesn't effect my crew.
 
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T. Dauphin
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I'll chime in with an agreement.
I think the 'other' referred to are the other units not attached to the gun.

It still bothers me, though, that a gun shield is so effective a shield that the only way to hit the infantry behind it is to hit the gun. Even stone buildings that totally surround the target infantry offer a mere +3 for protection.whistle

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Scott B
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tanik wrote:

It still bothers me, though, that a gun shield is so effective a shield that the only way to hit the infantry behind it is to hit the gun.


Is it reasonable the lower TH number for gun and crew reflect the difficulty of an AFV crew spotting an emplaced ATG and balancing the player's complete knowledge of the board. The +2 shield only offers it's protection on the IFT, after the AFV has spotted and hit the gun and crew with the TH roll.

It seems similar to the halving of FFEs for concealed units.
 
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T. Dauphin
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Yea, I'm OK with the low TH on the gun. But this value applies whether it's an AFV firing or another gun. And this is the only instance of infantry being 'non-targetable' in essence. In any other situation infantry can be targetted separately from whatever else it shares the the ground with.

And all the rules we discussed were for ordnance attacks. It appears as though infantry fire across the CA of the gun would have absolutely no effect on the crew, as you have to target the gun, not the infantry, and small arms fire have no effect on a gun.

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Scott B
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Quote:
It appears as though infantry fire across the CA of the gun would have absolutely no effect on the crew, as you have to target the gun, not the infantry, and small arms fire have no effect on a gun.


I think squad can shoot at the crew...

Quote:
...against high explosive and infantry-type fire... - 48

Quote:
The gun crew is affected only by fire resolved on the IFT. - 48.2


with AFV/ordnance, you just have to hit the gun before you can resolve against the crew on the ift.

S

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T. Dauphin
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sbramley1967 wrote:
Quote:
It appears as though infantry fire across the CA of the gun would have absolutely no effect on the crew, as you have to target the gun, not the infantry, and small arms fire have no effect on a gun.


I think squad can shoot at the crew...

Quote:
...against high explosive and infantry-type fire... - 48


I have to say, in all my explorations of this topic, I don't think I've ever read that paragraph, but that seems pretty clear.


That was too easy. Thanks.



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craig grinnell
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tanik wrote:

sbramley1967 wrote:
Quote:
It appears as though infantry fire across the CA of the gun would have absolutely no effect on the crew, as you have to target the gun, not the infantry, and small arms fire have no effect on a gun.


I think squad can shoot at the crew...

Quote:
...against high explosive and infantry-type fire... - 48


I have to say, in all my explorations of this topic, I don't think I've ever read that paragraph, but that seems pretty clear.


That was too easy. Thanks.





It's NEVER that easy. I'm sure there's a half sentence tucked away somewhere in "Hedges" or "Rubble" that alter this in some bizarre way. laugh
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