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Subject: Turbati Aquae rss

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Gurps Melendor
Brazil
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Motivation:
· I feel the Rivers Hexes are a little bit underused;
· I really like the search for good neighbor aspect in TM games and it could be improved;
· Trading Posts could have more strategic importance, not just a step for big deal;
· More replayability means more fun.

Components:
· 9 Shipyards (one of each color);
· 9 Shipyard's reference, double sided (one of each color);
· 27 Ships (3 of each color);
· 1 bonus card: 3VP when you complete a Trade / Action: move all your ships;
· 1 scoring tile : 5VP if you build a Shipyard / 2PW for each cult you have 4 or more steps;
· 1 Power Action token “move all your ships” (2PW);
· 1 Final Scoring Tile: Ruler of the 7 Rivers;
· Many Trade Tokens.

Building a Shipyard
· There will be special rules for Dwarfs, Fakirs and Riverwalkers;
· You can improve a Trading Post to a Shipyard if the TP has access to a River hex. There is only one Shipyard per player;
· The basic cost of the Shipyard would be 4w and 6c, but could be different to some races, in order to balance them (more expansive for Swarmlings and cheaper for Engineers for sure) ;
· It is a 2 3 power building. It will give immediately 1 Ship Tech Advance and a special Income;

Income
· In the first income after the Shipyard construction, put your 3 ships on it.
· In the others turns incomes take your ships that are on another player’s Shipyards and Trading Posts and put they back on your Shipyard. Ships on Rivers should not be moved during the income.

Moving the Ships
· After any of you actions you can move one or more of your ships ;
· Each ship can be moved up to your Ship Tech for free. You can expend 1PW Coin for one extra move for one ship. BON 4 will also increase your moves by one;
· You can move your ships in any order, but you have to finished one move before do the other.
· The 1st move of your ship must to one River hexe, after that, it can go to adjacent Rivers or enter in another player Shipyard or Trading Post, if it is empty. Each Shipyard and Trading Post can only receive one ship per turn. The ships cannot pass through the buildings, once they are in, they immediately do a TRADE and cannot be moved anymore until the next income.
· Your ships can pass through other ships but must end the move on a hexe without other ship (including yours). The exception is ships inside their Shipyard, they don’t block any move.
· Every time a ship pass through a complete bridged of other player, that player receive 1 PW. Completed bridge means one building in each side, but not necessary your building.

Trade
· The owner of the ship will choose ONE reward: 3 Coins, 1 Worker, 4 Power or 1 Cult Step in your lowest Cult. If the Final Scoring Tile: Ruler of the 7 Rivers is in play take on Trade Token.
· The owner of the building will receive 1 2 coins.

Move all your Ships
· There is a new Power Action “Move all your Ships” that costs 2 PW and can only be activated once per round as the others Power Actions.
· The new Bonus Card will give a “Move all your Ships” action, once per round.
· In both cases, you will do a movements of your ships as described before and after that you can do your free movements as well.

Riverwalker
· The riverwalkers receive 5 VP when the Shipyard is build, they do not receive Ship Tech.
· The ships range is equal to 1 plus 1 for each Trading Post they have.

Fakir
· The Shipyard will increase the carpet range by 1;
· The ships range is equal to the carpet range (so it will start with 2, considering the Shipyard is build);

Dwarfs
· Dwarfs don’t have Shipyard, they have the Deep Market instead;
· The Deep Market can be build in any hexe, but can only receive ships if it is near of a river;
· Dwarfs don’t receive ship tech, obviously. Instead, the tunnel range is increased but only from the Deep Market.
· Dwarfs don’t have ships, they have Merchants. They start in the Deep Market. Their range is three from the Deep Market and two from others Dwarf’s buildings. They can only land in others Dwarfs buildings and others players Shipyards and Trading Posts, if they are empty. Merchants will Trade and occupy buildings like ships. There can be only one Dwarf Merchant in any hexe.

Final Scoring Tile: Ruler of the 7 Rivers
· Every time you do a Trade, you receive a Trade Token. The Final Scoring will give 18/12/6 VPs for the players with more Trade Tokens.

arrrharrrharrrh

Edited: Final Scoring Tile: Ruler of the 7 Rivers included.
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Erik Burigo
Italy
Belluno
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“Don't try the paranormal until you know what's normal.” - Granny Weatherwax
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This sounds really fun. I'm intrigued. laugh
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Tungsten Sword
Spain
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That's a very interesting idea. I don't know why, but reading this post made the minis from Catan: Seafarers come to my mind.
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Dániel Lányi
Hungary
Budapest
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I like the idea, it just needs some playtesting now

melendor wrote:

· After any of you actions you can move one or more of your ships ;


Does this mean I can move my ships after each and every action I take? If, so, that sound problematic to me, because now it incentivises players to take action they can separately to move their ships more and more, and that just slows down the game. Also TM I think has the mechanism that the first to pass (i.e. the one who had the least actions) will be the first in turn order as a catch-up. With this you're inverting that, and it might make the game more of a rich get richer.
My idea would be to place the ships immediately when the shipyard is built and move the ships in the income phase according to turn order, with a multiple of your ship value (for example five times ship value). This would make it way faster at least. On top of that you could also have the power action and a bonus tile for additional movement. Or the solution might be to make a sideboard for the shipyard building, and have an orange octagon on it that allows movement.
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Robert
Germany
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Cool idea!

There will be a race towards other players' TPs and shipyards. If we assume that every player has about one TP on the river plus a shipyard, that makes eight targets in a 4p game (some of them may be many river hexes away, or not even reachable, e.g. on F&I side 1 and Loon Lakes) for 12 ships. Shipping advancement becomes more attractive, and Mermaids get a free advantage when it comes to early trading in a round (and thus early and more likely resource influx).

The shipyard is expensive though, and it requires a few trades to pay off.

I presume upgrading a TP to shipyard will not trigger any of the scoring or bonus tiles which give VP?
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LudoH LudoH
France
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I also think that the idea looks fun,

Like mentioned above, I also believe that moving ships after each action makes a lot of moves and may delay the game (and lower the interest of the 2pw->move ships). Consequently I wonder if it would not be possible to have one moving ship phase at the beginning of each round. This of course needs refinement: you probably want to allow a bit more moves than you ship tech, e.g. your ship tech+1 (+1 if you pay 1 pw). First player might be too powerful, thus you couls allow all players that have ships to move one ship (and do three "moving ship" turns, one per ship) ...

But overall the idea looks great! I'd like to try it
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Dániel Lányi
Hungary
Budapest
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DocCool wrote:

I presume upgrading a TP to shipyard will not trigger any of the scoring or bonus tiles which give VP?


New round scoring tile please!
I also think it's pretty expensive. Maybe a simpler way would be that all TPs on the shore would have a ship, that way no new type of building is needed.
 
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LudoH LudoH
France
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wallwaster wrote:


New round scoring tile please!

I believe there is one, called "Scoring tile"
 
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Robert
Germany
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LudoH wrote:
wallwaster wrote:


New round scoring tile please!

I believe there is one, called "Scoring tile"
Scoring tiles are not round, they are rectangular.
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Gurps Melendor
Brazil
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One more idea.

Components:
1 Final Scoring Tile: Ruler of the 7 Rivers
Many Trade Tokens

Every time you do a Trade, you receive a Trade Token. The Final Scoring will give 18/12/6 VPs for the players with more Trade Tokens.
 
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Gurps Melendor
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DocCool wrote:
Cool idea!

The shipyard is expensive though, and it requires a few trades to pay off.

I presume upgrading a TP to shipyard will not trigger any of the scoring or bonus tiles which give VP?


There would be one new scoring tile, one new bonus card and one new final scoring tile. They will can give VPs to make the Shipyard attractive in some games. Without them it can be a bad choice construct a Shipyard. It will not be build in every game and I think it is great.
 
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Gurps Melendor
Brazil
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LudoH wrote:
I also think that the idea looks fun,

Like mentioned above, I also believe that moving ships after each action makes a lot of moves and may delay the game (and lower the interest of the 2pw->move ships). Consequently I wonder if it would not be possible to have one moving ship phase at the beginning of each round. This of course needs refinement: you probably want to allow a bit more moves than you ship tech, e.g. your ship tech+1 (+1 if you pay 1 pw). First player might be too powerful, thus you couls allow all players that have ships to move one ship (and do three "moving ship" turns, one per ship) ...

But overall the idea looks great! I'd like to try it


The ships will increase the playing time, that is clear. But remember the players will be competing for markets. There will be a racing, one new competitive aspect in the game. They will not move their ships forever, the markets will be finished sometimes.
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James Wolfpacker
United States
North Carolina
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Very nice! It reminds me of some of the strategy used in the Catan expansion Explorers and Pirates (rather than Seafarers).

Based on my game experience in that, I recommend allowing 2 ships per hex and pass through. I'm not sure about docking being allowed to one ship as you said or increasing it to two (for a better suggestion see below). For movement purposes moving ships should not be considered a free conversion (like 1pw to 1c or 3pw to 1w is free before or after an action) but a complete full action unless there is an extra move phase added.

Ships should either have a full separate move phase or moving 1 ship is an action. The current phases are Income, Actions, Cult Bonus. I would recommend Income, Move Ships, Actions, Cult Bonus since moving ships can give you income if you go this route. Personally, I would recommend making one ship move as a full action. Also, when the shipyard is built the player receives one ship instantly (maybe 2?) in addition to the free shipping advance and make the income of the shipyard be one ship during the next income phase. When a ship completes a trade I recommend returning the ship to the supply like priests used for shipping, digging, flying, or 1 cult step. The Power Action to Move All Ships might be too cheap at 2pw and 3pw might be better. If bridges are used as toll collectors then I recommend adding a 2nd ACT1 also. If you decide to go with ships as a new resource maybe add another Power Action: +1 Ship for 4pw. It can be used if you just have a TP adjacent to water and no shipyard yet.

I am also suggesting another action that can remove a ship from your ship supply. It can be used to sail to a new hex location and create a Dwelling for free on your home terrain. You can also use ACT5, ACT6, BON1, or regular faction digging (including Giants ACTG) if your ship (tunnel/flying merchant for Dwarves/Fakirs) is adjacent to the hex you dig (on the hex for Dwarves/Fakirs) and the ship can perform the digging. This ship conversion would not be available during the Cult Bonus, but the ships can use the Cult Spade Bonus to to dig a hex directly adjacent. When a ship is converted to a Dwelling turn the ship on its side on top of the hex and you get +1w income in the next income phase. Some factions might have this income adjusted down (like Engineers, Volcano) or up (like Ice or Swarmlings). I would suggest playtesting to see if allowing the Ship >> Dwelling conversion to count for Dwelling scoring. It might be too much, or it might be ok.

Another function of a ship at the end of the game is that it can be strategically placed to actually connect a network. This will make the final scoring and network scoring more competitive and cutting an opponent's network more difficult (especially on Original or Revised maps).

Since a shipyard's (SY) cost is similar to SH and SA, I would allow BON6 and any SH/SA scoring to be used on it since it is not as likely that all 3 will be built. If all 3 are built then those players could be at a disadvantage with lack of workers and lack of network. This means that the Shipyard should also be considered a 3pw building (4pw for Yetis).

It is also fine to add the special round tile for shipyards only. I would increase the point value to encourage players to build them during the SY round instead of the SH/SA round. Perhaps 7vp would be better? I think most players agree that 4pw for 4 Fire is the worst cult reward and should at least be changed to 1pw for 1 Fire like 1c for 1 Earth. I am thinking the cult bonus should probably be improved. Perhaps +1pw for each cult step in one cult of your choice? Another option would be for 2 priests on cult tracks you get +1 ship so you do not over produce your ship income.



 
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Robert
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Since shipyards cost is similar to SH and SA, I would allow BON6 and any SH/SA scoring to be used on it since it is not as likely that all 3 will be built. If all 3 are built then those players could be at a disadvantage with lack of workers and lack of network. This means that the Shipyard should also be considered a 3pw building (4pw for Yetis).
I feel that this would make them too strong; in all games there is at least one building type which cannot earn you VP via bonus tile (temples), and usually more (if the respective bonus tile is not in the game).

I'm also unsure whether the "2pw per cult of 4+" income of th new 5VP scoring tile is a good idea, as it gives yet another reward for cult advancement (5VP for building the shipyard sounds fair), and whether 3VP per trade from the bonus tile isn't too strong, especially for the Mermaids.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Since shipyards cost is similar to SH and SA, I would allow BON6 and any SH/SA scoring to be used on it since it is not as likely that all 3 will be built. If all 3 are built then those players could be at a disadvantage with lack of workers and lack of network. This means that the Shipyard should also be considered a 3pw building (4pw for Yetis).
I feel that this would make them too strong; in all games there is at least one building type which cannot earn you VP via bonus tile (temples), and usually more (if the respective bonus tile is not in the game).

I'm also unsure whether the "2pw per cult of 4+" income of th new 5VP scoring tile is a good idea, as it gives yet another reward for cult advancement (5VP for building the shipyard sounds fair), and whether 3VP per trade from the bonus tile isn't too strong, especially for the Mermaids.


See my edits, I think this would be ok to do because the shipyard (SY) is essentially in the same building class as Strongholds and Sanctuaries, but I do admit that it would have to be playtested to see which of us is correct. Making the shipyard produce 1 ship as income can help limit the 3vp per trade in the round a player has the BON tile.

All Round Scoring Tile end round rewards are based on Cult Advancement.

Another Round Scoring Tile could also be made so that you get X vp once for completing a ship trade where X is the distance between the delivery and your shipyard. The Cult Bonus could be +1 priest if all cults are not at 0.
 
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