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Kanban: Automotive Revolution» Forums » Rules

Subject: Streamlining Red Seat and Player Seat rss

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R. Sangalang
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I'm hoping to make playing and understanding the Red Seat and Player Seat easier. Below is the current implementation and the proposed one.

Current Rules:
Setup
0. player seats face down except one face up, and one locked

During Turn
1. receive red seat
2. check if you have any face down, unlocked player seat
3. if yes, flip player seat face up, discard red seat
4. if no, place red seat on your player board

Pre Meeting
5. you must spend red seats to flip any face down, unlocked player seats
(this covers the timing when you unlock 5th seat and have a red seat)

During Meeting (Old Business)
6. you may move a face up player seat to a performance goal (limit 1 per goal)
7. you may not spend red seats to flip any face down, unlocked player seats

During Meeting (New Business)
8. you must spend red seats to flip any face down, unlocked player seats

During Final Scoring
9. move face up player seats to player board
10. may spend one player seat per achievement
11. earn one point per red seat
12. earn one point per player seat


Proposed Method:
Setup
0. player seats face up, except locked one

During Turn
1. receive red seat to player board

Pre Meeting
nothing

During Meeting (Old Business)
2. spend a red seat to move an unlocked player seat from table to a goal
(limit 1 per goal)

During Meeting (New Business)
nothing

During Final Scoring
3. may spend one red seat to move a player seat to an achievement
4. earn one point per red seat


The proposed method conflicts with card 32, so a change is needed.
current: 3pp for each seat you have around the conference table (not on a performance goal or face down)
proposed: 3pp for each pair of [red seat available and unlocked player seat (not on a performance goal)]


This method should mechanically yield the same result with less instructions.
1. red/player seats interactions (which happen more often) have less rules.
2. card 32, has slightly more complexity (only triggers once and has special text anyway)

Is there something I misunderstood from the current rules?
Are there any conflicts that I have not thought of?


*update 2016-10-4
component limitation issue mentioned by one-wolf.
20 red seats need to be added with the following rules:
0. setup. Remove 5 seats for 3 player game, or 10 seats for 2 player game.
0. setup. Place 1 red seat from the common supply under each locked player seat
5. cert. When you unlock your 5th seat, collect the red seat there, then discard one red seat.


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Chris Olsen
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It seems like it would work mechanically. I can see where some players may prefer the old system in that you only have to look in one location to see how many seats each player currently has available when gauging potential actions.
 
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Kyle Meighan
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Manahawkin
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There are only 24 generic Red seat tiles. Therefore, your method could potentially cause a component issue.
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R. Sangalang
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jabooty3 wrote:
It seems like it would work mechanically. I can see where some players may prefer the old system in that you only have to look in one location to see how many seats each player currently has available when gauging potential actions.


True. Although under the current rules, you still have to check player boards in the case of the 5th seat and they have 4 player seats face up.

Also, if you are really trying to understand their scoring potential, you'll need to refer to their player boards anyway, unless you have great memory (in which case you won't need to check their number of seats).

Thanks for mentioning the visual difference though. =)
 
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R. Sangalang
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One_Wolf wrote:
There are only 24 generic Red seat tiles. Therefore, your method could potentially cause a component issue.

Definitely overlooked this issue. Thank you for mentioning it.
It may be complicated since the limitation of components is intended. Lets take a look:

Total possible available seats (converting all player seats to red seats)
4 player game, x admin certified = 24+4(4)+4x
= 40, 41, 42, 43, 44
3 player game, x admin certified = 24+3(4)+3x
= 36, 37, 38, 39
2 player game, x admin certified = 24+2(4)+2x
= 32, 33, 34

The easy, but imperfect fix would be to add 20 seats to the components and the following setup rule:
0. setup. Remove 5 seats for 3 player game, or 10 seats for 2 player game.
However, this does not cover the edge of the unlocked seat fluctuation.

The perfect fix would require an extra rule in setup and certification:
0. setup. Place 1 red seat from the common supply under each locked player seat
5a. cert. When you unlock your 5th seat, collect the red seat there, then discard one red seat.
5b. alternate. When you unlock your 5th seat, add the unlocked red seat to the common supply.


I prefer the first version of 5 due to the fact that it doesn't create an exception when encountering red seats (you always put them on your player board).
The extra rule in setup is only performed once.
However the certification rule, does add a fifth instruction during play and teaching.

Physically, I can add 4 (5x red seats) markers to increase the total by 20.
(Maybe I'll cut up the video QR code cardboard. It's exactly the size of 4 red seat tiles. Will need throw on a 5x red seat graphic though.)

Edit: added these to the original post
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R. Sangalang
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Finished the 4 5x red seat markers.
Did end up cutting up the video QR code marker
It's rough, but it'll serve.

Before labels:


After labels:


 
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Claudio Coppini
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Hi guys, just got this game and was wondering: is it mandatory to exchange red seats for meeting seats? Can't you keep it say for next meeting in case you think you might not be able to score that much in the current meeting anyway?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Michael Cabral
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Yes you can hold onto those red seats for another meeting or you can just choose to not use a seat during the meeting. Effectively skipping your turn. If you skip, you cannot come back into that meeting to score another card.

See my post below for further details.
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Claudio Coppini
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Cabralicus wrote:
Yes you can hold onto those red seats for another meeting or you can just choose to not use a seat during the meeting. Effectively skipping your turn. If you skip, you cannot come back into that meeting to score another card.


Thanks for the confirmation. I was slightly confused about this cause in the rulebook on page 14 under the meetings new business section it reads:

"Flip as many of your Seats at the conference table faceup as possible. For each red seat you discard from your player board, flip 1 face-up"
 
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Jon Ben
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Of course I've been up all night! Not because of caffeine, it was insomnia. I couldn't stop thinking about coffee.
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Drugo81 wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:
Yes you can hold onto those red seats for another meeting or you can just choose to not use a seat during the meeting. Effectively skipping your turn. If you skip, you cannot come back into that meeting to score another card.


Thanks for the confirmation. I was slightly confused about this cause in the rulebook on page 14 under the meetings new business section it reads:

"Flip as many of your Seats at the conference table faceup as possible. For each red seat you discard from your player board, flip 1 face-up"


You cannot spend red seats during the meeting. Any unused player seats left after the meeting are kept face up and can be used in a future meeting. Because of these facts it is in the player's best interest to always convert all red seats to player seats before the meeting. You cannot regret doing that, and it is possible to regret not doing it.

That's why the rules imply you must convert if you can. Doing anything else is a bad decision.
 
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Dan Verret
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Cabralicus wrote:
If you skip, you cannot come back into that meeting to score another card.


Yes you can come back. You can't skip if you have not present your pet project.
 
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Michael Cabral
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Drugo81 wrote:
Cabralicus wrote:
Yes you can hold onto those red seats for another meeting or you can just choose to not use a seat during the meeting. Effectively skipping your turn. If you skip, you cannot come back into that meeting to score another card.


Thanks for the confirmation. I was slightly confused about this cause in the rulebook on page 14 under the meetings new business section it reads:

"Flip as many of your Seats at the conference table faceup as possible. For each red seat you discard from your player board, flip 1 face-up"


Yes you can hold those red seats, but it is not recommended as JonBen stated. You are stunting your ability to score pp in the next meeting or Final Scoring. You should have as many seats face-up as possible.

I also stated that you can choose not to use one or more seats (I meant face-up seats) during the meeting, with exception to your Pet Project seat. Any face-up seats will be available for the next meeting.

You must present your pet project no matter how badly you failed to achieve the goal on it even if you do not have any face-up seats. You can Speak or you can Pass.

When you Speak you "place your pet project from your hand face-up in front of you, making it available for anyone to score, just like the ones on the conference table. You must do this once, and only once, per meeting." you can also take 1 of your face-up seats from the conference table and put it on a Performance Goal of your choice (on your Pet project, other players' pet projects, or the conference table goals.)

I incorrectly stated that once you pass you cannot come back in. You can come back in after passing. But you can only pass if and only if you have already placed your Pet Project face-up. You can jump back in, later in the meeting. The meeting ends once all players consecutively pass.

That text about flip as many of your seats at the conference table face-up as possible happens on the New Business portion of the meeting once everyone passes consecutively. The unused face-up seats stay face-up and are available for the next meeting. At this point you should flip as many seats as possible for each Red Seat you discard. Keep in mind that you need Seats to score in Final scoring on the Final Goals tile

One benefit that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is that if you do decide to hold onto the Red Seat tiles you earn 1 pp per Seat, Book, or Parts Voucher on your player board in Final Scoring. It still isn't recommended as you would usually score more points using those seats in meetings or final goal scoring. On the other hand, if you flipped all Seats at the conference table and you have Red Seats left those will be scored as bonus points for being extremely vocal and having lots of seats.
 
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Jon Ben
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Unused personal seats are also worth 1VP each. They are moved to your player board during final scoring.
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Kyle Meighan
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JonBen wrote:
Unused personal seats are also worth 1VP each. They are moved to your player board during final scoring.


Yes. There is absolutely no benefit to holding on to red seats when it comes time to flip your seats at the meeting. In fact, I don't believe it is optional. But even if it were, it would foolish to do so.

-Kyle
 
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Claudio Coppini
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Cheers guys for all the confirmations.
 
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