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Subject: General Questions: Wharf Loading and Captain. rss

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Enon Sci
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1) During the Captain phase, when it comes down to checking storage, are goods of a variety not found on the ships still held to the 1 per windrose rule?

Here's an example: Billy has 6 barrels of indigo and Ted has 3 barrels of indigo and 4 heads of corn. Ted draws the captain card. Ship A, at the start of the phase, is already loaded with indigo and has 2 open slots. Ship B has half the slots open, but is loaded with sugar (which nobody currently has). Ted ships 2 barrels of indigo and fills Ship A. Nobody touches Ship B.

Now, I know Ted can store his remaining 1 barrel of indigo on his windrose, and I gather Billy would have to dump five of his barrels back into the supply (again, keeping one on the windrose). However, would Ted have to dump 3 heads of corn as well, even though a ship with corn wasn't in the harbor?

2) In the rules it states:

"This imaginary ship can take any one good but it may be a kind on one of the three cargo ships or the other imaginary wharf ship."

Ok, is this merely saying that the wharf can be loaded with any good - as long as you're only loading ONE type of good per captain phase?

What a peculiar way of saying that, if so.


3) Anyhow, it then goes on to say:

"An imaginary wharf ship has the capacity for 11 barrels"

I take this as an ineloquent way of saying it has unlimited capacity per round, right? Alternatively, I could read this as saying it LITERALLY has 11 spaces and that I would need to sell 11 of a singular type of good before I could switch to another variety.

*Sigh*.. These have to be the worst rules I've read so far from Euro land.

I thought Funny Friends was bad, but this takes the cake.


Thanks.
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Dave Eisen
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Interesting. I often use Puerto Rico as a model of clarity in rules.

1. You can keep one barrel. Period. Does not matter what you did or did not ship. Does not matter what is on the boats. Does not matter if you are the player who chose captain or someone else. One barrel. Period.

2. Yes. The wharf can take one type of good and it is shipped by the person as if it were a huge ass boat that takes all of the barrels that player has. The added verbiage is just to make clear that it is possible for a player who has say 5 corns to ship 2 of them on to the corn boat (which happened to have exactly 2 empty slots when that player's turn to ship came alone) to fill up the corn boat and then later during the same captain phase to ship the other 3.

3. Writers being overly clever here. 11 is mentioned only because that is the number of barrels provided of sugar and indigo and is thus the largest possible shipment on the wharf on a given round. Ignore the mention of 11. You just pick one of your types of goods and ship all of it. The wharf empties out and is fully available the next time a player calls captain.
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Enon Sci
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dkeisen wrote:

1. You can keep one barrel. Period. Does not matter what you did or did not ship. Does not matter what is on the boats. Does not matter if you are the player who chose captain or someone else. One barrel. Period.


Wait - really? It's just one barrel, not even one of each type of barrel. Damn, color me surprised.

So, just to clarify, no matter what was shipped or what goods you had, you have to decided on just ONE barrel to keep after the captain phase is drawn, right?

Wow.. thanks.


Quote:

2. Yes.


Thank you. Your added example was quite nice as well.


Quote:

3. Writers being overly clever here. 11 is mentioned only because that is the number of barrels provided of sugar and indigo and is thus the largest possible shipment on the wharf on a given round. Ignore the mention of 11. You just pick one of your types of goods and ship all of it. The wharf empties out and is fully available the next time a player calls captain.


Ah. I see. Thank you. Incidentally, that's a classic example of why I think their quest for clarity has ironically stumbled them into ambiguity. Saying the ship is unlimited opposed to having a capacity of 11 equates different things, as I pointed out with the fact the latter would imply 11 of the same goods would need to be shipped.

It's painfully obvious that the translator wasn't a native english speaker. I think, if you're localizing your product for a market, you should get a person from said market to do the localization. That's not always a possibility, I realize, but you could probably toss a stone in germany and hit a native english speaker - at least in Berlin.

 
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Dave Eisen
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Anarchosyn wrote:


Wait - really? It's just one barrel, not even one of each type of barrel. Damn, color me surprised.

So, just to clarify, no matter what was shipped or what goods you had, you have to decided on just ONE barrel to keep after the captain phase is drawn, right?



Yes. One barrel. Mighty harsh. Assuming no manned warehouses, and this shows the value of the warehouses.

The threat of captaining and forcing another player to toss lots of barrels over the side is a key tactical element to the game.
 
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jbrier
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Anarchosyn wrote:


*Sigh*.. These have to be the worst rules I've read so far from Euro land.


That's odd, considering Puerto Rico won the Essen Feather award in 2002 for best written rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essen_Feather
 
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Enon Sci
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verandi wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:


*Sigh*.. These have to be the worst rules I've read so far from Euro land.


That's odd, considering Puerto Rico won the Essen Feather award in 2002 for best written rules.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essen_Feather


Nothing on that link says that the rules reviewed for the Essener Feder award are anything but the original german rules. Even if they did review the translated rules, what were the native languages of the judges?

Anyhow, written clearly and structured well are not really the same thing. I still feel that PR's rules fail at both, but I'm not married to the opinion strong enough to get into a debate on the issue. To briefly explain myself, however, I grade the legibility of instructions on how easy it is for a person to understand the central concept the writer is attempting to get across on an initial read. Puerto Rico, more so than any others I've had experience with, demanded multiple re-evaluations to not merely understand but to feel confident I understood. The latter was more the issue - I'd feel as if I got the idea, then they'd over elaborate and essentially put their foot in their mouth. I'd be thinking "I understand.. I understand.. I understand.. I un.. ehh.. wait, what?" more often then I'm accustomed. Different languages have a different flow to the way they syntactically structure the ideas in an expression, as well I'm sure you know. The fact the person who translated the work wasn't fluent in English is made apparent with how the sentences are structured at times (examples quoted above, but others exist).

I'm also not saying the rules are 100% illegible, but rather that they are the worst I've seen from a euro game so far. They're certainly written in worse english than Settlers of Catan, Funny Friends, Yspahan, Pillars of the Earth, Power Grid, Jambo, Caesar and Cleopatra, Goa, Attika, Spank the Monkey, Carcassonne and War on Terror. That's not many, however, so perhaps I've been lucky.
 
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Werner Bär
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Anarchosyn wrote:
*Sigh*.. These have to be the worst rules I've read so far from Euro land.


I think the rules are excellent.
The only exception is that misleading 'capacity 11' for the wharf.
 
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Daniel Johns
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Anarchosyn wrote:
1)
Here's an example: Billy has 6 barrels of indigo and Ted has 3 barrels of indigo and 4 heads of corn. Ted draws the captain card. Ship A, at the start of the phase, is already loaded with indigo and has 2 open slots. Ship B has half the slots open, but is loaded with sugar (which nobody currently has). Ted ships 2 barrels of indigo and fills Ship A. Nobody touches Ship B.

Now, I know Ted can store his remaining 1 barrel of indigo on his windrose, and I gather Billy would have to dump five of his barrels back into the supply (again, keeping one on the windrose). However, would Ted have to dump 3 heads of corn as well, even though a ship with corn wasn't in the harbor?



In any game there are three ships in use, not two. If Ship C, like Ship B, is part-full of something nobody has and is consequently not touched, then the other replies are correct and Ted can choose to keep 1 indigo or 1 corn. If Ship C is empty, then Ted must ship his corn in it (unless somebody else gets in first gets in first and blocks him).
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John Weber
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For examples of poorly written rules, check out my GeekList on "WORST RULES EVER" for some stronger candidates, like the game rules that omitted the victory conditions. Doubt you would see too many votes for PR there.

The hypothetical you present seems to be an unusual one. If you count the barrels of indigo, there are 9 in players' hands, meaning the ship in question would have to be the small one, the 4 ship, to be loaded with indigo and have only two spots open. Possible, but unlikely in most games I've seen; collectively, for the situation you pose to occur in a real game, there would have had to have been two or more Craftsmen plays without any shipping for the one player to have that many indigo (6) and a half-full indigo boat -- but usually you find one player looking to ship those goods rather than risk losing them at the end of the Captain phase.

But, as others have pointed out, if you don't have a warehouse, you need to get down to one barrel total at the end of each Captain phase.
 
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Sean Price
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the only (and i mean only) problem i had with the puerto rico rules is that they are hard to understand until you've played the game. this is a common problem with board games, and as such, i don't really see it as a problem. even this question is in the rules. i don't have them in front of me, but it says when you load your wharf ship you put them directly into the supply. i think they are incredibly well written and clear.
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Enon Sci
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OmegaDan wrote:


In any game there are three ships in use, not two.


Incorrect. In a two player game there are two ships, not three.

 
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Mike Bird
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Is there a two player variant? It didn't seem to me that two players would make much of a game.

As a side note, I've played this game about five or six times and I still have to have the rules by my side and reread sections aloud to everyone to come to an agreement about what the rules really mean.

 
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Matthew M
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MikeBravo wrote:
Is there a two player variant? It didn't seem to me that two players would make much of a game.


http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/128510

2P Puerto Rico is actually very fun.

-MMM
 
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Anarchosyn wrote:
OmegaDan wrote:


In any game there are three ships in use, not two.


Incorrect. In a two player game there are two ships, not three.


Whilst this is true, the rules (as quoted) are specifically written for three to five players, not two.
 
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