Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rout check in open ground smoke hexes rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
badge
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Do suppressed units have to check for routing in an open ground smoke hex? I am guessing yes since smoke is not considered a terrain modifier.

Thanks
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
beresford dickens
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
And you would be right.

More interesting, now I look at it, is whether ORCHARD prevents you from having to Rout, since it isn't listed as a Terrain Modifier either.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
badge
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the response. I thought that was the case but didn't know for sure. It does state open ground hexes with smoke are still open ground for concealment purposes and smoke modifier is not a terrain modifier per se. I guess the same applies to orchards since as you say, orchards are not beneficial terrain.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Webster
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Tech & BoardGaming Nerd
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't really see a hole in the rules here. Certain conditions (currently smoke and orchard, but I wouldn't be surprised to see brush and rice paddies in future releases) are clearly identified as non-beneficial terrain modifiers. Therefore they are ineligible rout destinations and deny growing concealment.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christopher O
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CaseyN60 wrote:
I don't really see a hole in the rules here. Certain conditions (currently smoke and orchard, but I wouldn't be surprised to see brush and rice paddies in future releases) are clearly identified as non-beneficial terrain modifiers. Therefore they are ineligible rout destinations and deny growing concealment.


If I recall correctly, the (new) TEC included in the latest Kickstarter versions has a note about smoke specifically not applying for cases of rout check.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dan Poole
United States
Goldsboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
badge
Have you seen the Yellow Sign?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
If I recall correctly, the (new) TEC included in the latest Kickstarter versions has a note about smoke specifically not applying for cases of rout check.


The TEC states smoke cannot be used to regain concealment. It doesn't mention routs.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Krohn
United States
New York
flag msg tools
designer
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
badge
Ahhh....my misspent youth...
Avatar
mb
I just was directed to this thread.

I have always played that they would not have to rout if they have a beneficial modifier. This is what is says in the rules:

Quote:
They are not considered in Open Ground if they have a
beneficial terrain modifier against all direct fire (Foxholes,
Hedgerows, Halftracks etc.).


I think maybe I should delete the word terrain to avoid confusion?

Now, growing concealment is different than not having to Rout. You have to be out of LOS to grow concealment. The note that was included in the Smoke section of the Player Aid Card was to remove any confusion that Smoke does not block LOS enough to allow gaining concealment.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jim Krohn wrote:
I have always played that they would not have to rout if they have a beneficial modifier. This is what is says in the rules:

Quote:
They are not considered in Open Ground if they have a
beneficial terrain modifier against all direct fire (Foxholes,
Hedgerows, Halftracks etc.).


I think maybe I should delete the word terrain to avoid confusion?

Certainly the word "terrain" should be deleted if it's not intended to be restricted to terrain but also to include smoke.

(Unless of course smoke is somehow defined to be "terrain" too.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Webster
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Tech & BoardGaming Nerd
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jim Krohn wrote:
I think maybe I should delete the word terrain to avoid confusion?

I actually prefer the RAW. The unit is routing to feel safer from the incoming lead. This generally means putting distance or something hard between yourself and the enemy. Smoke does not give you that feeling; it is uneven and can be disorienting when in the thicker clouds rather than giving the feeling of security.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Krohn
United States
New York
flag msg tools
designer
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
badge
Ahhh....my misspent youth...
Avatar
mb
Well the problem with the RAW is that it implies that the protection offered by Orchards is not enough to negate the Rout, which is not the case. I have always played and intended that a positive modifier from Orchards would be enough to avoid a Rout check. Not that I want to, but changing that would have a BIG impact on some of the SE scenarios.

Then there is the simplicity of it. If you have a positive modifier, you are not considered in Open Ground.

Quote:
Smoke does not give you that feeling; it is uneven and can be disorienting when in the thicker clouds rather than giving the feeling of security.


Maybe, but then is some cases this would lead to units leaving a smoke hex to go through Open Ground to find better cover.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Webster
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Tech & BoardGaming Nerd
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jim Krohn wrote:
Well the problem with the RAW is that it implies that the protection offered by Orchards is not enough to negate the Rout, which is not the case.

I would say the RAW more than implies that orchards aren't sufficient to negate rout, but I agree that orchards would probably provide sufficient cover for a trained combat unit to use as cover. And if the scenarios were designed with orchards as rout destinations then the rules should absolutely reflect that. As for smoke, I respectfully disagree.

First, in military parlance smoke doesn't provide cover, it provides concealment, which is significantly less comforting. I never experienced smoke in combat, but I did train with both smoke grenades and smoke pots that simulated heavier mortar smoke rounds and I never once felt secure within a smoke-filled area. It is inconsistent, dissipates fairly rapidly, and I felt more exposed and disoriented when I couldn't see much around me but knew that our "enemy" had the smoke-filled area targeted. If my troops were taking heavy fire in an open area with smoke I would have ordered them away from the fire toward better cover, doing my best to keep the smoke between them and us for concealment, even if it meant running through open ground. But again, if the rules and scenarios were balanced from a different perspective or simplify the rules with little actual game effect then they should simply be updated to make it clear. And after all, if the unit starts its rout in or reaches a smoke-filled open ground hex, it will soon find itself simply in open ground. Even if it didn't want to be!

[edit] fixed formatting issues -- I can't type on a tablet
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Krohn
United States
New York
flag msg tools
designer
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
badge
Ahhh....my misspent youth...
Avatar
mb
I don't know if there is a disagreement here. I was just saying that as it was originally written, the intent was that positive terrain modifiers would deny the need to Rout and that there were some non-clear cut situations where someone might feel safer in Smoke. We are also talking about soldiers that are suppressed and not acting always under orders or rationally. It actually only comes up in the game VERY rarely.

That, of course, is completely different than Orchards, which I am emphatic should provide cover and is a big part of a number of scenarios.

Regardless, I have been in communication with members of the development team and we are in agreement that Smoke would not prevent a Rout check. I think some were playing it that way already.

So, official ruling time - the benefit from Orchards - and Wheatfields, they are coming soon - do deny the need to Rout if not adjacent, while Smoke does not.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Krohn
United States
New York
flag msg tools
designer
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
badge
Ahhh....my misspent youth...
Avatar
mb
Beresford points this out in the rules:

Quote:
52.0 OPEN GROUND
Any hex without terrain on the center hex dot is considered Open Ground.


That helps support that you are not in Open Ground in Orchards, but you can be if in Smoke.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Webster
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Tech & BoardGaming Nerd
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jim Krohn wrote:
Beresford points this out in the rules:

Quote:
52.0 OPEN GROUND
Any hex without terrain on the center hex dot is considered Open Ground.


That helps support that you are not in Open Ground in Orchards, but you can be if in Smoke.

I 100% support the revised rule specifically allowing orchards and denying smoke-only hexes as rout destinations. I would also point out that BoB is unusual in that beneficial modifiers (from the defender's perspective) are actually negative, not positive. It might be confusing to use the term "positive terrain modifier" (where positive has two different meanings).

I don't follow how the quoted rule affects the discussion. The question isn't about Open Ground. The RAW (pre-change) requires touting to a hex with a "beneficial terrain modifier". The PAC specifies that both Orchards and Smoke are not terrain modifiers, and Orchards even have a zero (non-negative) modifier which isn't really "beneficial" so much as neutral.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Krohn
United States
New York
flag msg tools
designer
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
badge
Ahhh....my misspent youth...
Avatar
mb
Because the hex dot is covered in an Orchard hex, it is not considered Open Ground, so the third bullet of the Rout provision would not apply.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aswin Agastya
Indonesia
Bekasi
Jawa Barat
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm, I do like having smoke as an option to maintain unit position between turns I have to though.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Si Brooks
msg tools
Dave,

I've got to agree that 'in' the smoke isn't a great place to be. In Afghanistan we used it for deception on routes we didn't take. The opposition would always fire into it. Much better to drop it on the enemy, if you can Id their firing points. That way they're blinded but friendly support can still suppress them. I've considered a rule for miniatures which would reduce enemy firepower if smoke were deployed anywhere in LoS. It would probably be more trouble than it's worth but might reflect the deception tactic.

Si
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.