$5.00
$15.00
$20.00
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Researcher of antisemitism Monika Schwarz-Friesel based in Berlin's German Technical University is interviewed here by the Times of Israel. One exchange I think relevant to many on this board is:
Q wrote:
A lot of people express concerns that they would not be allowed to criticize Israel without being labeled as anti-Semites…
A wrote:
Yes. And remarkably, in the material that we reviewed, this concern is expressed exclusively by authors of letters that are actually anti-Semitic. None of the authors of the letters that criticized Israel without being anti-Semitic voiced any concerns that they could falsely be accused of Jew-hatred. It is the anti-Semites who actually commit the kind of false accusation which they claim to be a victim of, in order to deny their hatred of Jews. This implies a victim-perpetrator-inversion, which is a historically deep-rooted pattern in the standard repertoire of anti-Semitic constructions. Already in the 19th century anti-Semites accused Jews to use their alleged control over the media to censor and delegitimize anti-Jewish criticism.

For those who understand German:

Her description of ancient antisemitism in the video sounds much like by own description of the origin of Christian antisemitism.

Let the excuses and weasel words begin!
10 
 Thumb up
1.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
For BJ.....
mb
Its a toughie. You see a similar problem when talking about feminism- there are critics of feminist theory who are not misogynists (Camille Paglia comes to mind), but whose arguments are used by misogynist jerks as cover for thier rhetoric.

I, for one, think its possible to be critical of different elements of Jewish or Israeli politics and culture without being antisemitic. But its really, really important to point out when criticism of Israeli foreign policy, say, turns into anti Jewish conspiracy nonsense.

My general rule of thumb is that if you afraid your opinions might be seen as racist, misogynist, or antisemitic, blaming others for 'misunderstanding' your position is bullshit. Take ownership of your speech- be critical of Israeli policy but not of Jewish people; take issue with elements of feminist theory but leave individue women out of it. And if you get critized for your speech, take ownetship- either explain yourself better, apologize, or stand by what you said. But just whining "Im repressed because Jews get upset when I say 9-11 was a Mossad conspiracy, they're oppressing me!" is crap.

Sure, some people will misrepresent you because they're assholes. Dont go to thier level. If you have a point, make it, defend it, or move on.

Darilian
34 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Darilian wrote:
Its a toughie. You see a similar problem when talking about feminism- there are critics of feminist theory who are not misogynists (Camille Paglia comes to mind), but whose arguments are used by misogynist jerks as cover for thier rhetoric.

I, for one, think its possible to be critical of different elements of Jewish or Israeli politics and culture without being antisemitic.…

Of course it can. As she says in the interview and video, it's the antisemites who claim all criticism of Israel is supposedly antisemitic. Those genuinely criticizing Israel don't make those claims; they don't need to.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
For BJ.....
mb
whac3 wrote:
Darilian wrote:
Its a toughie. You see a similar problem when talking about feminism- there are critics of feminist theory who are not misogynists (Camille Paglia comes to mind), but whose arguments are used by misogynist jerks as cover for thier rhetoric.

I, for one, think its possible to be critical of different elements of Jewish or Israeli politics and culture without being antisemitic.…

Of course it can. As she says in the interview and video, it's the antisemites who claim all criticism of Israel is supposedly antisemitic. Those genuinely criticizing Israel don't make those claims; they don't need to.


Exactly. And if you hide behind such a weaselly argument, you deserve derision.

Darilian
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
Scheiß Inselaffen!
mbmbmbmbmb
It struck me recently the number of discussions about antisemitism that seemed to be coming up recently: the divisions within Momentum, the pro-Corbyn wing of the Labour party, over remarks made by Jackie Walker (in turn being a follow-on from the Livingstone fiasco); President Rivlin's speech at the Ukrainian parliament, rightly criticising its historical laws celebrating antisemitic nationalists and Holocaust collaborators, and the Ukrainian nationlist backlash; the attacks by Breitbart on Anne Applebaum for her criticism of the current Polish government.

Often it seems that is the responses to the incidents rather than the original cases themselves that you really see the antisemitism.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Isn't it down to criticizing the actions of a jew/a grouo of jews/Israeli gov't is reasonabke but criticizing them for being a jew/grouo of jews is anti-semetic?

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
Isn't it down to criticizing the actions of a jew/a grouo of jews/Israeli gov't is reasonabke but criticizing them for being a jew/grouo of jews is anti-semetic?

Not really because Israel, as the expert in the video points out, is singularly and uniquely associated with Jews. Most of the so called criticisms of Israel one routinely encounters in media of all types are merely repackaged antisemtic tropes. Even if your German is not good enough to listen to the video, read the interview.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Salo sila wrote:
It struck me recently the number of discussions about antisemitism that seemed to be coming up recently: the divisions within Momentum, the pro-Corbyn wing of the Labour party, over remarks made by Jacqueline Wilson


Umm you mean the comments by Jackie Walker who is a mixed-race Jew herself.

To give some context to the non-UK people http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/30/momentum-chief-ja... has a video with her comments.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Isn't it down to criticizing the actions of a jew/a grouo of jews/Israeli gov't is reasonabke but criticizing them for being a jew/grouo of jews is anti-semetic?

Not really because Israel, as the expert in the video points out, is singularly and uniquely associated with Jews. Most of the so called criticisms of Israel one routinely encounters in media of all types are merely repackaged antisemtic tropes. Even if your German is not good enough to listen to the video, read the interview.


I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
Scheiß Inselaffen!
mbmbmbmbmb
andyl wrote:
Salo sila wrote:
It struck me recently the number of discussions about antisemitism that seemed to be coming up recently: the divisions within Momentum, the pro-Corbyn wing of the Labour party, over remarks made by Jacqueline Wilson


Umm you mean the comments by Jackie Walker who is a mixed-race Jew herself.

To give some context to the non-UK people http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/30/momentum-chief-ja... has a video with her comments.


Oops. Yes. Post edited.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
When you're an antisemite-'hammerer', then, everything is an antisemite-'nailer'! Sometimes a 'cigar' is JUST a 'phallic'-symbology representation also. whistle
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Josh
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


2 and 3 are laughably bildabergian in nature. For 1, I am sure there have been palestinian innocents iilled in airstrikes. Airstrikes are hard to control, US airstrikes kill innocents. Now 'Jews target innocents to kill babies' sounds insane and right up the blood libel alley. For 4. I suppose it depends on context. Before the West rolled up and carved out modern Israel there was someone there. They might have a different take on things. The reoccuring settlement building/destruction/cycle thing is at least a touch opaque to outsiders as well but I'd call all of it no more or less than other nations tend to do (colonialism, manifest destiny etc) and of course there is more to learn on the subject for a clearer picture I am sure. Middleeast History and even current events don't get much play in the US beyond Terrorism!!!!!!!!!!!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
Shadrach wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


2 and 3 are laughably bildabergian in nature. For 1, I am sure there have been palestinian innocents iilled in airstrikes. Airstrikes are hard to control, US airstrikes kill innocents. Now 'Jews target innocents to kill babies' sounds insane and right up the blood libel alley. For 4. I suppose it depends on context. Before the West rolled up and carved out modern Israel there was someone there. They might have a different take on things. The reoccuring settlement building/destruction/cycle thing is at least a touch opaque to outsiders as well but I'd call all of it no more or less than other nations tend to do (colonialism, manifest destiny etc) and of course there is more to learn on the subject for a clearer picture I am sure. Middleeast History and even current events don't get much play in the US beyond Terrorism!!!!!!!!!!!

Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
whac3 wrote:
Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.
The 'native indigents' HERE "fought" and LOST theirs! Then, some 'proclaim' we're yet 'LOST Tribe' of there too? Hey 'cuz'! whistle
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
admin
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

I thought Abraham was originally from Ur and that the land was first settled by the Cannanites?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
mb
jmilum wrote:
I thought Abraham was originally from Ur and that the land was first settled by the Cannanites?
"Manifested Destination"?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


2 and 3 are laughably bildabergian in nature. For 1, I am sure there have been palestinian innocents iilled in airstrikes. Airstrikes are hard to control, US airstrikes kill innocents. Now 'Jews target innocents to kill babies' sounds insane and right up the blood libel alley. For 4. I suppose it depends on context. Before the West rolled up and carved out modern Israel there was someone there. They might have a different take on things. The reoccuring settlement building/destruction/cycle thing is at least a touch opaque to outsiders as well but I'd call all of it no more or less than other nations tend to do (colonialism, manifest destiny etc) and of course there is more to learn on the subject for a clearer picture I am sure. Middleeast History and even current events don't get much play in the US beyond Terrorism!!!!!!!!!!!

Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

Yes but there weren't in the majority in the British Mandate of Palestine. A lot of Arabs who had been there for countless generations were driven out by force. (As I have no doubt that the Jews would have been driven out in 1948 if they had lost.) The whole thing is a mess without a solution that is equitable to all sides. There is no doubt that the Israeli state is slowly annexing the West bank to Israel so the process is continuing.
Israel is clearly not a creation of the West however, but of Zionism which has very deep roots.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam Phelps
United States
Houston
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

Who could hate the Jews? I mean, really, they are a very funny people.

Not like those Germans (who have no sense of humor at all).



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
DavidDearlove wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


2 and 3 are laughably bildabergian in nature. For 1, I am sure there have been palestinian innocents iilled in airstrikes. Airstrikes are hard to control, US airstrikes kill innocents. Now 'Jews target innocents to kill babies' sounds insane and right up the blood libel alley. For 4. I suppose it depends on context. Before the West rolled up and carved out modern Israel there was someone there. They might have a different take on things. The reoccuring settlement building/destruction/cycle thing is at least a touch opaque to outsiders as well but I'd call all of it no more or less than other nations tend to do (colonialism, manifest destiny etc) and of course there is more to learn on the subject for a clearer picture I am sure. Middleeast History and even current events don't get much play in the US beyond Terrorism!!!!!!!!!!!

Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

Yes but there weren't in the majority in the British Mandate of Palestine. A lot of Arabs who had been there for countless generations were driven out by force. (As I have no doubt that the Jews would have been driven out in 1948 if they had lost.) The whole thing is a mess without a solution that is equitable to all sides. There is no doubt that the Israeli state is slowly annexing the West bank to Israel so the process is continuing.
Israel is clearly not a creation of the West however, but of Zionism which has very deep roots.

This is just not factually correct. Both Jews and Arabs immigrated in large numbers from 1850. Fewer than 10% of either can claim to be not descended from immigrants. The Arabs were largely not driven out by Jewish force in 1948, although a few notable exceptions do exist; Jews were driven out by Arab force wherever possible.

Jews accepted the partition plan. The Arab League rejected it. They ordered Arab to leave. Those who did are theoretically the first Palestinians and those who did not are theoretically the first Israeli Arabs.

All of this is beside the point. In no other conflict is disputed land regarded as "stealing land" in the way that it is in Israel-- even when Jews or other Israelis buy and pay for the land in question. That is why it is antisemitic. If one said that there is disputed land, there would be no antisemitism. Even if one claimed both sides stole from each other, it would be defamation but not specifically antisemitism. It is the contention that Jews/Israel specifically steal Palestinians' land-- delegitimizing Jews' claim as a tribe to our ancestral lands-- that is specifically antisemitism.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
mbmbmbmbmb
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

I thought Abraham was originally from Ur and that the land was first settled by the Cannanites?

Only according to the Torah which also says the Land was given to the Jewish people in perpetuity by G-d. Archaeology claims Jews are simply indigenous to Israel. So either way,…
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Dearlove
United Kingdom
Isleworth
Middx
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


2 and 3 are laughably bildabergian in nature. For 1, I am sure there have been palestinian innocents iilled in airstrikes. Airstrikes are hard to control, US airstrikes kill innocents. Now 'Jews target innocents to kill babies' sounds insane and right up the blood libel alley. For 4. I suppose it depends on context. Before the West rolled up and carved out modern Israel there was someone there. They might have a different take on things. The reoccuring settlement building/destruction/cycle thing is at least a touch opaque to outsiders as well but I'd call all of it no more or less than other nations tend to do (colonialism, manifest destiny etc) and of course there is more to learn on the subject for a clearer picture I am sure. Middleeast History and even current events don't get much play in the US beyond Terrorism!!!!!!!!!!!

Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

Yes but there weren't in the majority in the British Mandate of Palestine. A lot of Arabs who had been there for countless generations were driven out by force. (As I have no doubt that the Jews would have been driven out in 1948 if they had lost.) The whole thing is a mess without a solution that is equitable to all sides. There is no doubt that the Israeli state is slowly annexing the West bank to Israel so the process is continuing.
Israel is clearly not a creation of the West however, but of Zionism which has very deep roots.

This is just not factually correct. Both Jews and Arabs immigrated in large numbers from 1850. Fewer than 10% of either can claim to be not descended from immigrants. The Arabs were largely not driven out by Jewish force in 1948, although a few notable exceptions do exist; Jews were driven out by Arab force wherever possible.

Jews accepted the partition plan. The Arab League rejected it. They ordered Arab to leave. Those who did are theoretically the first Palestinians and those who did not are theoretically the first Israeli Arabs.

All of this is beside the point. In no other conflict is disputed land regarded as "stealing land" in the way that it is in Israel-- even when Jews or other Israelis buy and pay for the land in question. That is why it is antisemitic. If one said that there is disputed land, there would be no antisemitism. Even if one claimed both sides stole from each other, it would be defamation but not specifically antisemitism. It is the contention that Jews/Israel specifically steal Palestinians' land-- delegitimizing Jews' claim as a tribe to our ancestral lands-- that is specifically antisemitism.

Ownership of the land does not change statehood. If I bought 1000 acres in France I could not decalre it part of the UK.
The Israeli state is annexing land to itself de facto.
I support the existence of Israel because we are where we are and this seems the best solution, but Israelis do not have the right to annex the west bank to Israel.
As an atheist, I do not believe in your god and therefore do not believe in a mystical title to land. I do not think thate stating that Israel has no right to the west bank is antisemitic.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James R
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
Shadrach wrote:

I wish she'd given a better example. The one offered is so toonishly stereotypical(even though written by a real person) that it doesn't offer much help in signifying actually separating the two.

Similar ones are that Israel:
1. routinely kills children or other innocents (typically Palestinians) This is a form of the blood libel.
2. exerts control on foreign gov'ts (especially the US) via a nefarious "Israel lobby" (This is the trope that Jews control the world)
3. commits atrocities that the media is unwilling to report (This is the trope that Jews control the media.)
4. steals Palestinian land, resources, etc. (This is the traditional portrayal of Jews as money-grubbers and thieves.)
-- and so on.


I had not heard those points before so that is interesting to at least understand some of the reasons criticisms of Israeli actions can be seen as antisemitic where I would have considered this before, thank you.

However on points 1 and 4 it would seem unreasonable to say we cannot criticize Israeli actions that result in the deaths of children or result in annexation of Palestinian territory. If we generally hold the view that advanced, powerful countries such as Israel, should be held to a higher standard when taking any military actions in terms of minimising civilian casualties or not taking aggressive wars to take new territory, then this should apply to Israel as well and does not necessarily imply antisemitic views.

James
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J
United States
Lexington
Kentucky
flag msg tools
admin
mbmbmbmbmb
whac3 wrote:
jmilum wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Jews were always here. Sorry the idea that Israel is a creation of the West is also one of those tropes. Jews have always been here and we fought a war of independence.

I thought Abraham was originally from Ur and that the land was first settled by the Cannanites?

Only according to the Torah which also says the Land was given to the Jewish people in perpetuity by G-d. Archaeology claims Jews are simply indigenous to Israel. So either way,…

The Torah is only law to Jews and other people aren't bound by that one.

I'm not up on the archaeology. Were there other indigenous people as well?

I suppose there would be a "first" since humans started in Africa, but that would have been in pre-history. Maybe around 100k years ago?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Boykin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
For BJ.....
mb
Personally, I think a lot of the blame can be laid at Britain's feet- giving the ho ahead for the Zionist movement with the Balfour declaration, then promising Indepence to the Arabs if they revolted against the Ottomans.

And in the end, reneging on BOTH, in order to secure Iraqi oil and the Suez. Both parties were played false by a nation determined to hold onto Empire.

Darilian
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.