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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » Rules

Subject: Monster moving to be adjacent to as many investigators as possible? rss

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So I have a hypothetical scenario; if the app were to instruct you to move the monster (represented by the red circle) two spaces to be adjacent to as many investigators as possible (represented by the green circles), what would happen in the scenario below (the walls being brown, the red segments being doors and the black segments representing separate spaces)? Would the monster move to the left door to be adjacent to the single player? Would be move to the same space as the single player? Would he hang out on the other side of the wall next to the two players? Would he move towards right door and stop in front of it? Some other outcome I don't see? Thanks for any input.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The monster would move to the space to the right of the left door.

It is the only space that is within 2 spaces of the monster that is adjacent to any investigators, hence it is the only choice of location to go to. If you were to score all the spaces it can reach, that space has a score of 1 (adjacent investigator) while every other space, including the space occupied by the lone investigator, has a score of 0.
 
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My understanding though is that spaces through walls are considered adjacent, no? So wouldn't the space to the monsters right have a score of 2 using that metric?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Spaces separated by a Wall have a special rule that they are adjacent, but effects ignore that adjacency unless specifically stated otherwise. This monster ability does not specifically state otherwise.
RRG - Wall wrote:
Effects that affect adjacent spaces cannot affect spaces through
walls unless an effect specifically allows it.
 
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Ah, I read that but didn't equate the movement with 'effects'; makes sense though, thanks!
 
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Evil Brother
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The following would be my answer:
dagens24 wrote:
So I have a hypothetical scenario; if the app were to instruct you to move the monster (represented by the red circle) two spaces to be adjacent to as many investigators as possible (represented by the green circles), what would happen in the scenario below (the walls being brown, the red segments being doors and the black segments representing separate spaces)?

This is unknown as the rules do not prescribe what it means for a monster to be adjacent to an investigator. If they are adjacent when the spaces they are on are adjacent (which is described by the rules) then it would have to move to the right.
Note that the rule about "effects don't go through walls" would not apply as moving the monster isn't affecting spaces behind walls. The effect that probably follows the move will be that effect and it would not go through the wall.

I would guess this is not the wanted effect though. The monster should move left (to the place where it will affect most investigators). This would thematically make sense.

Edit: I'm assuming "two spaces" means "up to two spaces" (as that is what the app usually says). My answer would be different if it had to be exactly two spaces.
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Frank Franco
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Clipper wrote:
The monster would move to the space to the right of the left door.

It is the only space that is within 2 spaces of the monster that is adjacent to any investigators, hence it is the only choice of location to go to. If you were to score all the spaces it can reach, that space has a score of 1 (adjacent investigator) while every other space, including the space occupied by the lone investigator, has a score of 0.


I'd move it to the actual space with the investigator since it can reach that far, but I'm not sure why since strictly speaking 1 space is enough.
Guess I've been making the game harder on myself.
 
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Chris
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I would move the monster two spaces to the left to be in the same space as that investigator. The goal of monsters is to attack investigators. I move them so that they can achieve that goal.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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It is likely that an instruction to move adjacent to Investigators will be followed by an instruction such as "and then attacks all Investigators that are adjacent." The monster would be able to attack through the door, so there is no need to move it into the investigator's space, and arguably, it would not be able to attack that space as it is attacking adjacent spaces and a space is not adjacent to itself.

Yes, the rules don't specifically mention what adjacency means for monsters and investigators, but we can infer it is referring to the spaces occupied by the figures.

And please, don't let us get bogged down in arguments over what is and isn't an effect again. We've shown in previous examples that pretty much everything is an effect. In this case, you can call it the effect the investigators have on the space so that you would count them toward that space.
 
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Clipper wrote:
The monster would be able to attack through the door

I don't have the rules reference in front of me. Where does it say monsters can attack through doors?
 
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Evil Brother
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Clipper wrote:
In this case, you can call it the effect the investigators have on the space so that you would count them toward that space.

You really can't in all reasonableness. A space isn't adjacent to another space because that other space is sending out "adjacent"-effects to the first space. There is no effect. It is simply topology.

I also severely doubt that a monster that would attack all investigators it is adjacent to is supposed to ignore the investigator in its space. It does not seem to be what is intended.

As I stated earlier: The problem is that the rules are not clear on this matter. They forget to tell us how to resolve adjacency between monsters and investigators. We can argue about what we think is intended, but to make it appear as though this is what the rules say is dishonest in my opinion.



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Chris
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Clipper wrote:
and arguably, it would not be able to attack that space as it is attacking adjacent spaces and a space is not adjacent to itself

There are only two types of attacks in the game: melee and ranged. Both can attack the square that you are in. Adding a third type, "adjacent", makes no sense.
 
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Jeff Hoffman
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If the monster is a Ghost, it would move to the right adjacent to the two Investigators.
 
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Reverend Uncle Bastard
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cbrua wrote:
Clipper wrote:
and arguably, it would not be able to attack that space as it is attacking adjacent spaces and a space is not adjacent to itself

There are only two types of attacks in the game: melee and ranged. Both can attack the square that you are in. Adding a third type, "adjacent", makes no sense.


Monsters are often instructed to attack "adjacent" investigators. This is not something being invented, it is something that the game includes. There are two types of attack for investigators, monsters will do whatever the app directs them to do. The instructions in the app are very clear that there are adjacent attacks that are not the same as ranged attacks. For example, range does not extend through doors, but monsters instructed to attack "adjacent" investigators can indeed attack through doors as this is not stated to be a "ranged" attack.
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dagens24 wrote:
So I have a hypothetical scenario; if the app were to instruct you to move the monster (represented by the red circle) two spaces to be adjacent to as many investigators as possible (represented by the green circles), what would happen in the scenario below (the walls being brown, the red segments being doors and the black segments representing separate spaces)? Would the monster move to the left door to be adjacent to the single player? Would be move to the same space as the single player? Would he hang out on the other side of the wall next to the two players? Would he move towards right door and stop in front of it? Some other outcome I don't see? Thanks for any input.



One flaw with the original question is the center room. I don't believe that any room in MoM has diagonally touching spaces, which is an artifact of using a grid in this question. It's always very clear where movement is permitted. Using a strict grid confuses this.

If the red circle can move diagonally down and to the right, then it's going to move to the square south of the two green circles.
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Also, make sure that the instruction on the app doesn't say "Move the monster two spaces to be adjacent to as many investigators as possible within range."

It often follows instructions with "within range." If it does, none of the above options are within range and therefore you would pick the option on the app that says something like "no investigators within range."

Zombies move this way. If you pick no investigators within range, it will tell you (often) to move 1 space toward the closest investigator.

The "within range" mechanic is there instructionally to represent the monster being able to see/hear/sense you. Often times if you are not within range, the monster will simply shamble around or slowly in your general direction. In these cases it is important to note that doors block range.

In the above situation, BT would be correct as figures can move diagonally so long a the corners of the spaces are touching. The monster would move through the door in the bottom right and (likely) attack the investigators on the adjacent space.
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reverendunclebastard wrote:
Monsters are often instructed to attack "adjacent" investigators. This is not something being invented, it is something that the game includes. There are two types of attack for investigators, monsters will do whatever the app directs them to do. The instructions in the app are very clear that there are adjacent attacks that are not the same as ranged attacks. For example, range does not extend through doors, but monsters instructed to attack "adjacent" investigators can indeed attack through doors as this is not stated to be a "ranged" attack.

I see now this topic has been discussed at length already and there is no official answer from FFG yet.

I agree with Evil Brother, if you go by the rules the monster would move one space to the right (ignoring corner adjacency for the moment). A subsequent attack of adjacent investigator(s) would then affect nobody. Since the app is replacing a human Keeper, and a human Keeper would never be that stupid, I personally would do what Clipper said and move the monster one space to the left and attack the investigator through the door -- if you assume attacking "an adjacent investigator" is not the same thing as "a ranged attack against an investigator that is adjacent", which I am not convinced is the case.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
One flaw with the original question is the center room. I don't believe that any room in MoM has diagonally touching spaces, which is an artifact of using a grid in this question. It's always very clear where movement is permitted.

I do not have the game in front of me, so I can't confirm, but I think when we played Rising Tide (and maybe Innsmouth) the houseboat tile and a dock tile were placed perpendicular to the boat rental tile such that four spaces were diagonally touching.
 
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Chris Lawson
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cbrua wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
One flaw with the original question is the center room. I don't believe that any room in MoM has diagonally touching spaces, which is an artifact of using a grid in this question. It's always very clear where movement is permitted.

I do not have the game in front of me, so I can't confirm, but I think when we played Rising Tide (and maybe Innsmouth) the houseboat tile and a dock tile were placed perpendicular to the boat rental tile such that four spaces were diagonally touching.

I've taken that diagonal spaces are not adjacent. I don't see anything in the rules that suggest they are.

While it was true that 1st Ed. allowed diagonal spaces to be adjacent.
Quote:
Investigators may move between two spaces that are diagonally
adjacent. Due to imperfections in die cutting, if spaces between
two tiles appear that they should be diagonally adjacent, then they
are. All non-adjacent spaces very clearly do not share a white
border by at least 1/8 of an inch.

There's nothing like this in 2nd Ed.

What we have is this for adjacency.
Quote:
Adjacent
* Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an
impassable border, or a wall.
* Two rooms are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an
impassable border, or a wall.
* A door is adjacent to each space for which it is a space edge.

and I would suggest that two spaces touching only diagonally do not therefore share a border.
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xris wrote:
cbrua wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
One flaw with the original question is the center room. I don't believe that any room in MoM has diagonally touching spaces, which is an artifact of using a grid in this question. It's always very clear where movement is permitted.

I do not have the game in front of me, so I can't confirm, but I think when we played Rising Tide (and maybe Innsmouth) the houseboat tile and a dock tile were placed perpendicular to the boat rental tile such that four spaces were diagonally touching.

I've taken that diagonal spaces are not adjacent. I don't see anything in the rules that suggest they are.

While it was true that 1st Ed. allowed diagonal spaces to be adjacent.
Quote:
Investigators may move between two spaces that are diagonally
adjacent. Due to imperfections in die cutting, if spaces between
two tiles appear that they should be diagonally adjacent, then they
are. All non-adjacent spaces very clearly do not share a white
border by at least 1/8 of an inch.

There's nothing like this in 2nd Ed.

What we have is this for adjacency.
Quote:
Adjacent
* Two spaces are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an
impassable border, or a wall.
* Two rooms are adjacent if they share a border, a door, an
impassable border, or a wall.
* A door is adjacent to each space for which it is a space edge.

and I would suggest that two spaces touching only diagonally do not therefore share a border.


I would argue that they do in fact share a border as their "diagonals" are touching and are borders.

There is nothing saying that you can't move diagonally, and as you mentioned it is directly addressed as an appropriate move in first edition. Whereas this is NOT first edition, movement is still limited and I don't see any reason why monsters and/or investigators would not be able to move diagonally when the situation arises.

Just because a corner is a corner, it doesn't make it NOT a border. Additionally, the idea that adjacency on old tiles was intentionally spaced to prevent confusion and "very clearly do not share...a border," one would expect that the tiles would remain consistent seeing as how 1E tiles are being used in 2E.
 
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Chris Lawson
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soakman wrote:
There is nothing saying that you can't move diagonally, and as you mentioned it is directly addressed as an appropriate move in first edition. Whereas this is NOT first edition, movement is still limited and I don't see any reason why monsters and/or investigators would not be able to move diagonally when the situation arises.

Exactly, it's not 1st Ed. so why are you using a 1st Ed. rule?

1st Ed specifically mentioned diagonals are adjacent, they added a whole paragraph about it.

2nd Ed is totally silent on the matter and only mentions borders, it makes no mention that a border would include a point where diagonals touch.

I'm not trying to force you to play it my way. I just pointed out that there's different opinions. My opinion is that diagonal spaces aren't adjacent, but feel free to play your games the way you feel is best.

It's something that could be added to the FAQ.
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I'm not using a 1E rule, I'm using logical application of the first editions tile design to 2E as they share tiles.

I'm not at home to look in detail at the reference guide under "move" but I feel like there may be some clarity there.

I just don't see anything in the rules contradicting moving diagonally so I'm not sure why you would assume that you can't. I'm not critiquing your gameplay, I'm just curious. I'm happy to disagree, but are you operating under the assumption that corners are not shared borders? Does a border have to be a "tile side" to effectively be considered a border?

Maybe clarity could be found under "border" in the reference guide?

Though it is pedantic, I feel it's a rather important bit of knowledge simply because actions feel so limited to begin with and many of the 1E tiles (especially outdoor tiles) would have diagonal borders if they are connected as a lot of the are outdoors and do not have walls. You may be able to free up some actions simply by moving differently.
 
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Frank Franco
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Back towards the original topic. What if there was only one investigator and it was in the same space as the monster - would people move the monster out of the investigators space so it was adjacent?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Diagonal connected spaces do not share a border. Borders are defined as lines in the RRG. Diagonally connected spaces only share a point and a point, by definition, is not a line. Thus, a corner is not a border and the RRG does have enough to show us that diagonally connected spaces are not adjacent.

The 1E example is discussing sections that are connected via a very short line due to misalignment between tiles. I believe the maps created by the app are designed to not have this sort of thing happen. If there is an actual short line, then it is intended to be that way.

This means we can shut down the argument about the OP's example, though. The diagonal spaces shown only connect at corners, so they do not share borders and are not adjacent.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
Back towards the original topic. What if there was only one investigator and it was in the same space as the monster - would people move the monster out of the investigators space so it was adjacent?


For that specific instruction, yes.

In the absence of a definition of what it means for monster-to-investigator adjacency, meaning the only logical assumption is to consider the occupied spaces to be adjacent, then you would move it out of the current space.

Consider the example where lone investigators are at either end of a three-space corridor. The monster would definitely move to the space between the investigators if it could, even if leaving a space with the investigators to do so.

Thus, it would leave the space even when there's only one investigator in its space and no others within reach, and you might even be able to choose a space if there's multiple candidates (potentially allowing you to avoid a horror check if it goes through a door).
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