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Subject: Helicopters? rss

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Silver Bowen
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One of the things I was excited about for this edition of MBT was tanks vs helicopters. Looking through the scenarios, however, I only see one that includes helicopters, and that scenario only has one. Did I miss something or are we really on our own for ground vs air? There seems to be a fair amount of guidance for creating your own scenarios, but I really expected at least a couple ready to play scenarios of this type (especially given that there are about 15-20 helicopter counters per side, not to mention fixed wing).
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Ty Snouffer
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I hadn't noticed that. That is a shame. Any different with the airplanes?
 
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Daniel S
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I was also disappointed with this aspect of the game.
 
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Adrian Hague
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Hopefully we'll see more scenarios involving air assets in the two expansions.
 
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Silver Bowen
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tsnouffer wrote:
I hadn't noticed that. That is a shame. Any different with the airplanes?


I think I saw one that includes a plane.
 
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Jim Day
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Helicopters are included in scenarios 4 and 10. Considering that scenarios 1 and 2 are introductory actions. That means helicopters are found in 2 of the remaining 8 scenarios.

That's 25% of the actions. I think that fairly representative of the force models.
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Joe Steel
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This is the beauty of the entire series, we can customize it any way we choose!
It is easy enough to add some helicopters to any scenario.

If using the USA don't forget the Kiowas and Cobras/Apaches work together in teams.



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Brian Scott
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As Joe said, you can always add an aircraft to one side in a scenario and give the other side some extra units adding up to roughly the same point value if you want to experiment with planes and choppers. I've done this in a couple of solo games so far.

Just make sure that the side without the aircraft has some non-trivial AA capability to give them a chance. (If all you have is tank AA MG's you might end up with something more like air-to-ground target practice than a balanced battle...)
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Silver Bowen
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So let's say I was going to take that intro scenario with just vehicles and replace some of the units with choppers. There are three possibilities here: one side choppers & the other AA (either side), or both sides choppers & AA. Keeping the force sizes relatively the same, what would reasonably balanced forces look like? Is it as simple as replacing 4 tanks or so with equivalent point value choppers and swapping an equivalent point value in tanks for 4 non-trivial AA units?
 
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Jim Day
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Please keep the introduction in section 6.7 in mind. There isn't any air-to-air combat, since aircraft from both sides are never in a scenario at the same time.
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Brian Scott
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I haven't tried this with the intro scenario, but I did do a play of scenario 2 where I gave the U.S. a Cobra and gave the Soviets two more BTR's with infantry carrying Grouse MANPADs. (I think that's what it was - I don't have the game in front of me at the moment to check exactly what added, but I used the unit point values to guide me in what to add.)

The result seemed satisfying - the Cobra did some damage but did get shot down eventually. That being said, I make no claims for having tested any particular scenario modification for balance or other potential issues. I just wanted to blow some stuff up from the air
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Joe Steel
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Yup, give the other side doctrinally correct AA systems* and you should be good.

For example a US Tank/Mech Company/Team would have a section (2 each) of M163 Vulcan or Stingers. The Soviets would have equivalent or even more AA as I think one vehicle per BMP-BTR platoon had MANPADS.

I suggest you guys give helicopters a try just to see how difficult it is for them to operate in this environment. They basically have to stay behind hills until they are ready for a pop-up attack. Tanks and Bradleys can take them out.

There is a reason US tankers were trained to make ZSU-23-4 priority targets above all others. In fact if I recall enemy AA units were at the top of a commanders PIR list. Priority Intelligence Requirements, what a commander needs to know immediately about friendly or enemy forces.

* "but Joe, what do doctrinal correct AA units consist of?" ah, young grasshopper, this is where you dedicate yourself to learning the game system and historical era thumbsup
The genius of the Playbook T/O&E is that it gives you exactly the correct size of combat support unit for company/team scenarios.
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Silver Bowen
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mongoose27 wrote:
Please keep the introduction in section 6.7 in mind. There isn't any air-to-air combat, since aircraft from both sides are never in a scenario at the same time.

Oh yeah, I do remember reading that bit.
 
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Silver Bowen
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SteelVictory wrote:

* "but Joe, what do doctrinal correct AA units consist of?" ah, young grasshopper, this is where you dedicate yourself to learning the game system and historical era thumbsup


I am aware that it is tantamount to blasphemy, but for me history takes a distant second place to the pursuit of the fine art of "blowing stuff up with other stuff".
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