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Will Brasher
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Played first time last night with all the great new stuff!!! (Unanimously loved the new stuff! Kudos!)

This instance came up....

Got first Fountain tile, happily popping them settlements down! Then in a later turn, managed to get the second tile and took the bonus tile too. At this stage had not used the first fountain tile that turn, is the power modified straight away or not until my next turn??

Didn't need to use it upgraded but the question was asked so was just looking for a clarification

Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Side point, Temple is amazing! Final play of the evening (2 player) both of us got the Temple bonus action and the game became an efficiency beast!

Side point 2: Flags on back of new Kingdom Builder card missing in the expansion?? ARGH! Gonna have to go through the duplicates and see if I have non-flag versions of all the others so they are all the same...

* 7/10/16-UPDATED TITLE OF THREAD AS GOT A REPLY*
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Donald X.
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
Rillian wrote:
Got first Fountain tile, happily popping them settlements down! Then in a later turn, managed to get the second tile and took the bonus tile too. At this stage had not used the first fountain tile that turn, is the power modified straight away or not until my next turn??

You can't use the bonus tile until your next turn.

Rillian wrote:
Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Well... a technical reading of the main set rulebook would say you can't use it until your next turn, and the Marshlands rulebook doesn't state otherwise. I am pretty sure I always played it as working starting after your turn though, meaning on the first other player's turn (but not if someone else, via their Canoe, claimed a last tile on the same turn of yours that you got the Canoe).
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Matt E
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
donaldx wrote:
Rillian wrote:
Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Well... a technical reading of the main set rulebook would say you can't use it until your next turn, and the Marshlands rulebook doesn't state otherwise. I am pretty sure I always played it as working starting after your turn though, meaning on the first other player's turn (but not if someone else, via their Canoe, claimed a last tile on the same turn of yours that you got the Canoe).


OK, forgive me, but is that not the opposite of what you said here?

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/23834192#23834192
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Donald X.
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
LastFootnote wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Rillian wrote:
Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Well... a technical reading of the main set rulebook would say you can't use it until your next turn, and the Marshlands rulebook doesn't state otherwise. I am pretty sure I always played it as working starting after your turn though, meaning on the first other player's turn (but not if someone else, via their Canoe, claimed a last tile on the same turn of yours that you got the Canoe).


OK, forgive me, but is that not the opposite of what you said here?

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/23834192#23834192

Well that is in fact how I play it. But this time I looked at the rulebooks.

Edit: I clarified same-turn Canoe-triggering above but I don't think I've ever seen it.

Edit: So see, the first sentence was me not having clicked the link yet, and then I realized you were asking only about Canoe triggering the turn you got it. And I mean, with no rulebook and no memory of it, I did not manage to answer the same way both places. Here I had the rulebook (.pdf, I have not received the physical game so maybe it's different) and had to think, what would it be if it weren't that, to clarify that case, because well, I did play that it worked on those other turns before you started a turn with it.
 
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Frank Hamrick
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
My understanding:

The Canoe action states that you cannot take the action until any one location tile on the board is emptied. Thus, it seems that this action is unique:
a) It might be several (many) turns before it could ever be used as it is ineligible for use until the FIRST location is emptied AFTER it is obtained. On the other hand...
b) It would not have to wait until the next turn to act as it's action is triggered as soon as the FIRST location is emptied AFTER obtaining it - meaning it could potentially be activated the same "round" in which it is obtained (i.e., before the owner of the Canoe action takes his next turn).
c) Once it is activated (by the emptying of a single location) it is now able to be activated each time the owner takes his turn (no longer has to wait for another location to be emptied).

The Canoe BONUS Action makes no mention of the 'trigger' requirement for first use. However, since it is a 'bonus' to the Canoe action, I would assume it would be ineligible for use until the Canoe actions were first triggered by the emptying of a location hex.

Thus I see the 'triggering' action (emptying of a location) as a one time action that would then release all three of the Canoe actions to be used thereafter on each of the owning player's succeeding turns.
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Matt E
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
Frank Hamrick wrote:
My understanding:

The Canoe action states that you cannot take the action until any one location tile on the board is emptied. Thus, it seems that this action is unique:
a) It might be several (many) turns before it could ever be used as it is ineligible for use until the FIRST location is emptied AFTER it is obtained. On the other hand...
b) It would not have to wait until the next turn to act as it's action is triggered as soon as the FIRST location is emptied AFTER obtaining it - meaning it could potentially be activated the same "round" in which it is obtained (i.e., before the owner of the Canoe action takes his next turn).
c) Once it is activated (by the emptying of a single location) it is now able to be activated each time the owner takes his turn (no longer has to wait for another location to be emptied).

The Canoe BONUS Action makes no mention of the 'trigger' requirement for first use. However, since it is a 'bonus' to the Canoe action, I would assume it would be ineligible for use until the Canoe actions were first triggered by the emptying of a location hex.

Thus I see the 'triggering' action (emptying of a location) as a one time action that would then release all three of the Canoe actions to be used thereafter on each of the owning player's succeeding turns.


???

The basic Canoe ability is unique in that is a "reaction" instead of an "extra action". You use it to place a settlement on water or swamp right when another player empties a location; you do not wait until your turn comes up. You can even use the same Canoe reaction multiple times per turn if multiple locations are emptied (by other players).

The Canoe bonus action—that is, the additional action tile you get when you obtain one tile from both of the Canoe locations—works just like e.g. Oasis. Once during each of your own turns, you may use it to build a settlement on water or swamp. You don't have to wait until somebody else empties a location or anything like that.
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Will Brasher
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Re: Fountain bonus action and Canoe extra action, timing clarification
donaldx wrote:
Rillian wrote:
Got first Fountain tile, happily popping them settlements down! Then in a later turn, managed to get the second tile and took the bonus tile too. At this stage had not used the first fountain tile that turn, is the power modified straight away or not until my next turn??

You can't use the bonus tile until your next turn.

Rillian wrote:
Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Well... a technical reading of the main set rulebook would say you can't use it until your next turn, and the Marshlands rulebook doesn't state otherwise. I am pretty sure I always played it as working starting after your turn though, meaning on the first other player's turn (but not if someone else, via their Canoe, claimed a last tile on the same turn of yours that you got the Canoe).


You're the boss! This was the expected answer
 
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Frank Hamrick
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So now I'm more confused.

1. Are we saying that when I get a Canoe, I can't use it until AFTER my next turn? That would mean, after I get the Canoe, if any of the following players empties a location before my next turn - I couldn't use it. That would NOT make sense! As I stated earlier, it seems logical that the Canoe action is unlike other action tiles in that once you get it, it is eligible to be used immediately when someone else empties a location (even if they do so before the first turn AFTER you get it).
2. Are we saying that the Canoe action can ALWAYS and ONLY be used when another location is emptied? In other words, I might have 2 Canoe Actions, but can't use them normally on any later turns. I can only ever use them immediately when someone empties a location? (I thought the "immediately after a location emptied" implied an "unlocking" of the Canoe ability and that after the 'unlocking' occurred, from then on the Canoe action could be taken normally on each of your turns. I totally misunderstood that.
3. Are we saying that the Canoe BONUS action does not have the 'triggering' requirement and thus, may always be used (starting the turn after obtaining it)? That's the way I've played it.
 
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Matt Smith
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Rillian wrote:
donaldx wrote:
Rillian wrote:
Got first Fountain tile, happily popping them settlements down! Then in a later turn, managed to get the second tile and took the bonus tile too. At this stage had not used the first fountain tile that turn, is the power modified straight away or not until my next turn??

You can't use the bonus tile until your next turn.

Rillian wrote:
Canoe extra action is so different from anything that has come before, very cool. Does the power only kick in after the next turn for the owner? We did have an instance of another player taking the final tile from a location the turn after a canoe tile was taken so we did not allow the Canoe action as it had not been in play for a whole turn.

Well... a technical reading of the main set rulebook would say you can't use it until your next turn, and the Marshlands rulebook doesn't state otherwise. I am pretty sure I always played it as working starting after your turn though, meaning on the first other player's turn (but not if someone else, via their Canoe, claimed a last tile on the same turn of yours that you got the Canoe).


You're the boss! This was the expected answer

It really boils down to when do the bonus tiles "refresh" (i.e. flip from picture side to pictogram side):
1. At the end of a player's turn
2. At the start of a player's turn

If #1 is correct, then the base Canoe ability would be available to be triggered on the player's turn immediately following the player's turn who just got the Canoe tile. For example, Player 1 gets a Canoe tile, then ends his turn and refreshes the Canoe tile. Player 2 then empties a Location hex, triggering Player 1's Canoe ability.

If #2 is correct, then the Canoe tile is still on the picture (spent) side until the owning player's next turn after the turn that he obtained the Canoe tile, at which point that player could start having the Canoe ability triggered by another player.

Personally, I prefer #1.
 
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Matt Smith
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Frank Hamrick wrote:
So now I'm more confused.

2. Are we saying that the Canoe action can ALWAYS and ONLY be used when another location is emptied? In other words, I might have 2 Canoe Actions, but can't use them normally on any later turns. I can only ever use them immediately when someone empties a location? (I thought the "immediately after a location emptied" implied an "unlocking" of the Canoe ability and that after the 'unlocking' occurred, from then on the Canoe action could be taken normally on each of your turns. I totally misunderstood that.
3. Are we saying that the Canoe BONUS action does not have the 'triggering' requirement and thus, may always be used (starting the turn after obtaining it)? That's the way I've played it.

2. Correct, the base Canoe action is only triggered on another player's turn. That player's turn is briefly interrupted so Canoe owners can resolve their Canoe ability.
3. Correct again, the Canoe BONUS action is performed by the owning player on his own turn, just like all other special tiles actions.
 
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Frank Hamrick
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mvettemagred wrote:
Frank Hamrick wrote:
So now I'm more confused.

2. Are we saying that the Canoe action can ALWAYS and ONLY be used when another location is emptied? In other words, I might have 2 Canoe Actions, but can't use them normally on any later turns. I can only ever use them immediately when someone empties a location? (I thought the "immediately after a location emptied" implied an "unlocking" of the Canoe ability and that after the 'unlocking' occurred, from then on the Canoe action could be taken normally on each of your turns. I totally misunderstood that.
3. Are we saying that the Canoe BONUS action does not have the 'triggering' requirement and thus, may always be used (starting the turn after obtaining it)? That's the way I've played it.

2. Correct, the base Canoe action is only triggered on another player's turn. That player's turn is briefly interrupted so Canoe owners can resolve their Canoe ability.
3. Correct again, the Canoe BONUS action is performed by the owning player on his own turn, just like all other special tiles actions.


Great. So now I think I have it straight.
 
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Donald X.
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mvettemagred wrote:
It really boils down to when do the bonus tiles "refresh" (i.e. flip from picture side to pictogram side):
1. At the end of a player's turn
2. At the start of a player's turn

I think of it as #1, but the technical reading of the KB rulebook says it's #2.

I could have asked for text making Canoe spell this out, but I didn't think of it. I feel reasonably free to just rule it however I want, but people at large who just look in the rulebooks I feel will go with #2. So I have to go with, technically it's #2, but I recommend the house rule of #1 for Canoe.
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donaldx wrote:
mvettemagred wrote:
It really boils down to when do the bonus tiles "refresh" (i.e. flip from picture side to pictogram side):
1. At the end of a player's turn
2. At the start of a player's turn

I think of it as #1, but the technical reading of the KB rulebook says it's #2.

I could have asked for text making Canoe spell this out, but I didn't think of it. I feel reasonably free to just rule it however I want, but people at large who just look in the rulebooks I feel will go with #2. So I have to go with, technically it's #2, but I recommend the house rule of #1 for Canoe.


It is true that the base game rulebook says that a player
P. 3 of base game rulebook wrote:
can use this extra action from their next turn on [emphasis in original]".


However, it also says:

P. 3 of base game rulebook wrote:
In order to indicate that they have performed an extra action the player turns their corresponding location tile over to its picture side. After they have finished their turn, they flip the tiles back to their pictogram side.


In other words, the first quote from the rulebook supports #2 from Donald's quote, while the second quote from the rulebook supports #1 from Donald's quote. The base game rulebook just doesn't seem to be consistent regarding this question. After all, the distinction wasn't relevant before Marshlands.

Did you see the second quote of the rulebook supporting your #1, Donald, and if no does it change your answer to make #1 outright official?


To make matters even more confusing, the German rulebook (which might actually be considered the original and therefore most relevant rulebook due to the translation process Donald has described elsewhere) has a different wording for the first quote, it says:
"Die Sonderaktion kann erst ab der nächsten Runde genutzt werden."
Which translates to:
"The extra action can be used starting on the next round."
In other words it doesn't have a "your" in front of the turn as the English rulebook, but uses a wording with round instead of turn. It doesn't seem to be clearly defined what a "round" is in Kingdom Builder, but judging from
P. 4 of base game rulebook wrote:
However, the current game round is still completed; the player on the right of the start player is the last player to perform their turn.
, it probably means taking the turns of all players, starting with the starting player.
Which would unfortunately give us yet another interpretation for the question at hand (let's call it #3), namely that you could use the Canoe starting with the next turn of the starting player. Which would be your next turn only if you happen to be the starting player, the next player's turn if you happen to be the player right of him and something in between otherwise.



All of this makes me think that the question is sufficiently unclear in the printed rules that I see absolutely no problem with Donald declaring #1 the official rule here.
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