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Subject: Any controlled tile randomizer available? rss

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Irham Abdul Halim
Singapore
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Trying to find a controlled tile randomizer but no luck so far. Most of them require skills and assets that I do not possess, while some just don't do what I need it to do haha. I might've missed one or there isn't one at all.

I'm specifically looking for a randomizer that can mix 40 green tiles and 42 blue tiles within a 20x20 grid.

Doing this to find other possibilities to lessen the set-up load for a game I'm currently doing up.
 
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Russ Williams
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irhammy wrote:
Trying to find a controlled tile randomizer but no luck so far. Most of them require skills and assets that I do not possess, while some just don't do what I need it to do haha. I might've missed one or there isn't one at all.

I'm specifically looking for a randomizer that can mix 40 green tiles and 42 blue tiles within a 20x20 grid.

Doing this to find other possibilities to lessen the set-up load for a game I'm currently doing up.


Is this simply for a game's initial setup? In that case, it surely doesn't matter whether each possible arrangement is literally equally probable, does it? You just want players to put the tiles down arbitrarily so it will be a different arrangement each time they play, I suppose.
 
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Billy Pitiot
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I don't know of any tile randomizer but to reduce the setup time:

- have you thought of having each individual tile part of a bigger board (e.g. 4 by 4)? As an example Sid Meier's Civilization: the Board Game has a grid of 16x16 spaces but each tile contains 4x4 spaces so in the end you have to place 16 tiles.

- Can you have each of those tiles revealed during the game? Or even placed during the game. Basically off-loading the setup and spreading the load over the length of the game
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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russ wrote:
irhammy wrote:
Trying to find a controlled tile randomizer but no luck so far. Most of them require skills and assets that I do not possess, while some just don't do what I need it to do haha. I might've missed one or there isn't one at all.

I'm specifically looking for a randomizer that can mix 40 green tiles and 42 blue tiles within a 20x20 grid.

Doing this to find other possibilities to lessen the set-up load for a game I'm currently doing up.


Is this simply for a game's initial setup? In that case, it surely doesn't matter whether each possible arrangement is literally equally probable, does it? You just want players to put the tiles down arbitrarily so it will be a different arrangement each time they play, I suppose.


Yep, you got it! But the point of the randomizer is so that no one controls the position of the objects placed (green are trees, blue are items) because it will affect the opposing player in terms of advantage.

I had a rule for set-up which is to roll a numerical and an alphabetical die respectively to determine the location of each object.......................... 82 times................. hahahaha.

Yeah, a friend could help set-up and all, but I want to have another alternative at hand, just to explore more possibilities. Do note that this game hasn't been playtested nor has it been revealed yet. Who knows, maybe those 82 tokens people might enjoy setting up.

The response I got from a previous thread I posted showed that it was somewhat 50-50: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1644908/long-game-set-ups-a...

Here's a shot of the map:
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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I take it there's some reason you can't just shuffle the tiles like cards?

It would be easy to write a computer program to create randomized arrangements.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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BilyVMe wrote:
I don't know of any tile randomizer but to reduce the setup time:

- have you thought of having each individual tile part of a bigger board (e.g. 4 by 4)? As an example Sid Meier's Civilization: the Board Game has a grid of 16x16 spaces but each tile contains 4x4 spaces so in the end you have to place 16 tiles.

- Can you have each of those tiles revealed during the game? Or even placed during the game. Basically off-loading the setup and spreading the load over the length of the game


The board is set as it is, no flipping of anything. As per the image above, you actually place trees and items on 82 different tiles (total of 40 trees and 42 items), which gives off the fact that the game environment will virtually never be the same. This will be a hidden-movement game and yes, the trees do affect vision.

Once the things are placed... they're set until the game is finished.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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Antistone wrote:
I take it there's some reason you can't just shuffle the tiles like cards?

It would be easy to write a computer program to create randomized arrangements.


I actually have thought of that, randomly placing 4x4 tiles and end up with a 20x20 play environment, with each tile being different. That does decrease set-up load but also decreases the chance of a totally different game environment the next time round (by not much though).

The current set-up virtually doesn't allow you to create the same map environment as previously played, because you simply can't. With that being said, the game is still within its testing stages with multiple possible changes no doubt.

As for the program... how easy is easy, because I have zero clue cry
 
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Russ Williams
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irhammy wrote:
russ wrote:
Is this simply for a game's initial setup? In that case, it surely doesn't matter whether each possible arrangement is literally equally probable, does it? You just want players to put the tiles down arbitrarily so it will be a different arrangement each time they play, I suppose.


Yep, you got it! But the point of the randomizer is so that no one controls the position of the objects placed (green are trees, blue are items) because it will affect the opposing player in terms of advantage.

Aha, OK; worried about the setup giving an advantage to one player.

Since it sounds like it's a 2-player game, there's a simple solution to make the setup fair for both sides:

One player sets up the tiles, then the other player gets to choose which side they will take.

(This is simply the well known fair "I cut the cake in half, then you pick which half you want" method.)
 
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Craig M
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Writing a program to do this would be trivial... I would be happy to do it for you. But how would you use the program in a physical boardgame? Display the arrangement on a screen, and then copy it? It still sounds cumbersome. I think the idea of putting multiple grid spaces on a tile is a good one. Could they be rotatable, as well? That would lead to so many combinations it would be similar to each grid space being random, and you could remove overpowered or awkward combinations, as well (depending on your game). So, what about shuffling a small number of megatiles and then laying them out...
 
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Chris Robbins
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Not depending on electronics ...

82 tiles in a bag for a blind draw. Draw a random tile. Each player rolls a d20, one colored to match the number bar background and the same for the letters. A custom d20 with the letters would save translating and be nicely unique. Place whichever color tile has been drawn if the location is vacant.

Swap dice each time for at least the illusion of more randomness.

Duplicates of already placed spaces are rerolled. (This is where it would need testing, both dice or one, which one, what is the least tedious as the bag gets empty.)
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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russ wrote:
irhammy wrote:
russ wrote:
Is this simply for a game's initial setup? In that case, it surely doesn't matter whether each possible arrangement is literally equally probable, does it? You just want players to put the tiles down arbitrarily so it will be a different arrangement each time they play, I suppose.


Yep, you got it! But the point of the randomizer is so that no one controls the position of the objects placed (green are trees, blue are items) because it will affect the opposing player in terms of advantage.

Aha, OK; worried about the setup giving an advantage to one player.

Since it sounds like it's a 2-player game, there's a simple solution to make the setup fair for both sides:

One player sets up the tiles, then the other player gets to choose which side they will take.

(This is simply the well known fair "I cut the cake in half, then you pick which half you want" method.)


Oh no no, it's a 2-5 player game where 1-4 hidden have to get away from this 1 creature. Details of the game will come out as soon as tonight to give you a better perspective. As a hidden player, I want the trees to give me an advantage in terms of vision. The more clumped up the trees are, the better. This one creature will have an advantage through his abilities but he has to use them strategically because each ability has a cooldown, where as the other 1-4 hidden players have to use their environment and items/traps to help them conquer their objective.

That's the basic synopsis of the game, hope this gives you guys a better picture of it ... and no, the objective for the hidden players isn't as simple as "Kill the Bad Guy" hahaha.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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I realised it's like 4:30am now mostly from where you guys are. It's 5:30pm here in Singapore hahaha.

Correction: Details of this game will come out as early as this *morning
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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Arcuate wrote:
Writing a program to do this would be trivial... I would be happy to do it for you. But how would you use the program in a physical boardgame? Display the arrangement on a screen, and then copy it? It still sounds cumbersome. I think the idea of putting multiple grid spaces on a tile is a good one. Could they be rotatable, as well? That would lead to so many combinations it would be similar to each grid space being random, and you could remove overpowered or awkward combinations, as well (depending on your game). So, what about shuffling a small number of megatiles and then laying them out...


Super nice of you man! The program is basically used for set-up, and it does sound like a "...that's it?" kinda feature. And yes, it displays its arrangements like how one would set-up Descent from the book.

As for the megatiles, that's exactly what I've thought of a couple of weeks back. Kinda like how Betrayal works with the doors but the end map has to be 20x20, with each mega tile being 4x4. That method is in fact in progress right now as an alternative to the current set-up if it's not to liking... not completed yet though.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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bltzlfsk wrote:
Not depending on electronics ...

82 tiles in a bag for a blind draw. Draw a random tile. Each player rolls a d20, one colored to match the number bar background and the same for the letters. A custom d20 with the letters would save translating and be nicely unique. Place whichever color tile has been drawn if the location is vacant.

Swap dice each time for at least the illusion of more randomness.

Duplicates of already placed spaces are rerolled. (This is where it would need testing, both dice or one, which one, what is the least tedious as the bag gets empty.)


That's exactly how the game is laid out, haha! Roll the dice, and put the designated token on the result. I've done the prototyping purely in TTS, which gave me the possibility of making a letter die. So in this case, a tree/item will be placed on R11:


After everything has been laid out, it will look something like this:

Ignore the "moon side" and "star side". That's for the in-game mechanics.

Those white tokens are the items and those green components are the trees, of course.
 
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"She comes out of the Sun in a silk dress runnin' like a watercolor in the rain."
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    Quadropolis has you just grabbing handfuls of tiles out of a bag and laying them down on the board upside-down until it's filled, then flipping all of them. Your board is bigger, but it sounds like you only do it once. With a couple of guys helping it's pretty quick in Quadropolis, maybe a minute if you're slow.

    If they're going into a bag or a bin scrambled, they'll come out of it scrambled. I don't see a need to shuffle given your example above, short of a shake of the bag or a couple of cuts of a stack.

             S.

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Cornixt
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Just having 2x2 sized tiles will reduce the number of tiles to a quarter without significantly affecting randomness of items.
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Irham Abdul Halim
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Quadropolis has you just grabbing handfuls of tiles out of a bag and laying them down on the board upside-down until it's filled, then flipping all of them. Your board is bigger, but it sounds like you only do it once. With a couple of guys helping it's pretty quick in Quadropolis, maybe a minute if you're slow.

    If they're going into a bag or a bin scrambled, they'll come out of it scrambled. I don't see a need to shuffle given your example above, short of a shake of the bag or a couple of cuts of a stack.

             S.



There isn't a shuffle in the first place haha. There are literally only 2 kinds of tokens in the game. And yeah, you do it once and you're done. I would just recommend separating the tokens if it goes PnP. Currently, it's only in TTS and I've saved a post-setup version so people can go straight into the action.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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cornixt wrote:
Just having 2x2 sized tiles will reduce the number of tiles to a quarter without significantly affecting randomness of items.


Oh shoot... when I mentioned 4x4 in the previous replies, I meant it to be 2x2. In my head is was picturing 4x4 as a 4-tiled square lol...
 
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Magnus Carlsson
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Have you thought about actually having a set map, instead you randomize the scenario on it? So that you still have a lot of different setups depending on where things are on the board. Items can be handled as in the Star of Africa placing the items on predesigned points. You will still have a lot of randomness but the setup would be much easier.

One thing to consider is the game length, personally I can accept longer setups for longer games.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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grimmymail wrote:
Have you thought about actually having a set map, instead you randomize the scenario on it? So that you still have a lot of different setups depending on where things are on the board. Items can be handled as in the Star of Africa placing the items on predesigned points. You will still have a lot of randomness but the setup would be much easier.

One thing to consider is the game length, personally I can accept longer setups for longer games.


Hmm, interesting.

I did my set-up the way it is because the trees do affect the chaser's vision. I have this visualisation that some games might favour the chaser which in turn urges the runners to strategise even more, vice versa.

But thanks for the suggestion, though! I'll put that in the "Possibilities" part of the game development.
 
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Irham Abdul Halim
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Quick update, I've posted a playtest thread for anyone who is interested to playtest the game in TTS:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23889464#23889464

And thank you guys for the awesome feedback and suggestions!
 
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Chris Robbins
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Sagrilarus wrote:

    Quadropolis has you just grabbing handfuls of tiles out of a bag and laying them down on the board upside-down until it's filled, then flipping all of them. Your board is bigger, but it sounds like you only do it once. With a couple of guys helping it's pretty quick in Quadropolis, maybe a minute if you're slow.

    If they're going into a bag or a bin scrambled, they'll come out of it scrambled. I don't see a need to shuffle given your example above, short of a shake of the bag or a couple of cuts of a stack.

             S.



There are 400 spaces. Only 82 will need a tile. In a specific mix of 40 and 42. To build the "map" before the game starts.

And think about the fun of flipping a tile that is in the middle of eight others.
 
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Chris Williams

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Just tell people to put the tiles on the board randomly. If you're that worried about people cheating, tell them to shuffle the stacks and fill out each row left-to-right as they draw from the stacks.

You're putting too much thought into this.
 
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Chris Robbins
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AnalyzerOfGames wrote:
Just tell people to put the tiles on the board randomly. If you're that worried about people cheating, tell them to shuffle the stacks and fill out each row left-to-right as they draw from the stacks.

You're putting too much thought into this.


Stacks?

There is no "filling" the board. 318 spaces will be empty.
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Craig M
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For playtesting purposes, if you are using TTS, then scripting could randomise the tiles fairly easily, with a button click. I could probably program it in one evening (program it in ten minutes if I was totally familiar with the game and the latest TTS scripting api).
 
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