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Codex: Card-Time Strategy – Deluxe Set» Forums » Rules

Subject: Spells and heroes rss

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Martyn King
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Can exhausted heroes cast spells and does casting spells exhaust heroes?
 
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Jason Reid
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Martynking3 wrote:
Can exhausted heroes cast spells and does casting spells exhaust heroes?


Yes and no.
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Michael
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As said above, yes exhausted heroes can cast spells.

No, casting a spell does not exhaust a hero.

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Andrew Hauge
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Yeah, unless something requires you to exhaust the hero (for example, Jaina Stormborne's midband and maxband abilities), you can do it.
 
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William Wilting
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I played my very first game this evening. My opponent and I forgot a lot of things, but when heroes can do specific things besides attacking and patrolling wasn't very clear to us. For example, I couldn't find anything specific in the rulebook that says I can cast (specialized) spells when a hero is exhausted. We even didn't think that a hero could cast a spell immediately after that hero is summoned, because according to the rulebook "all card types have arrival fatigue"

What about that last part? Doesn't that mean that spells have arrival fatigue themselves as well? Anyway, we thought that spells could be played on one turn by paying its cost and that it couldn't be cast (used) before the next turn, allthough it didn't make much sense to us, because the opponent could prepare his defenses before the spell would be cast. But still the rules read "all card types have arrival fatigue.

And what about leveling up a hero? It's not clear to me if you may level up a hero the same turn as you played (and payed for) it, or that you'll have to wait for the arrival fatigue to wear off next turn.

Really, there are many little things that the rules don't explain very clearly. People seem to know these rules, but I can't really find a "match" of what they say in the rulebook.
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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0616william wrote:
I played my very first game this evening. My opponent and I forgot a lot of things, but when heroes can do specific things besides attacking and patrolling wasn't very clear to us. For example, I couldn't find anything specific in the rulebook that says I can cast (specialized) spells when a hero is exhausted. We even didn't think that a hero could cast a spell immediately after that hero is summoned, because according to the rulebook "all card types have arrival fatigue"

What about that last part? Doesn't that mean that spells have arrival fatigue themselves as well? Anyway, we thought that spells could be played on one turn by paying its cost and that it couldn't be cast (used) before the next turn, allthough it didn't make much sense to us, because the opponent could prepare his defenses before the spell would be cast. But still the rules read "all card types have arrival fatigue.

And what about leveling up a hero? It's not clear to me if you may level up a hero the same turn as you played (and payed for) it, or that you'll have to wait for the arrival fatigue to wear off next turn.

Really, there are many little things that the rules don't explain very clearly. People seem to know these rules, but I can't really find a "match" of what they say in the rulebook.


Arrival fatigue just means you can't exhaust the card. That's all.

Casting spell doesn't require to exhaust the hero. So yes you can cast spell right away.

Casting/using spell is the samething. You pay its cost, and it does what it does then it goes to your discard pile (unless it is an Ongoing spell).

You can level up right away.

I think the problem is your reading of english is not that good because the rules are pretty clear on these points.
 
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Robin Zigmond
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I'm pretty sure all these things are indeed stated somewhere - but I'm afraid that the rulebook is really not very user-friendly. Codex isn't one of those games where you could get a copy, take it home to play with a friend, read the rulebook and then sit down to a game and only need to look a few things up as you play. William's experience above is itself proof of this - and while it's possible that language issues played a role in his case, this is by no means the only example.

In particular, and this was a point that I'd never noticed before, if the rules say, as they apparently do (I don't have the rulebook in front of me) "all card types have arrival fatigue", then why shouldn't that also apply to spells?

Now, as Jonathan clearly and correctly explained, arrival fatigue just means that "you can't exhaust the card"*, and there are no spells which have any kind of effect which requires you to exhaust them (instead the effect happens from simply playing them) - so it is possible to reason out that spells do not have "arrival fatigue". Indeed, I've not heard of anyone else making this particular assumption before. But I can certainly understand why many, including William, are confused. There are plenty of complaints on the Sirlin forums - including from people who know the game pretty well - about how badly the rules are explained. See for example http://forums.sirlingames.com/t/first-codex-games-impression... (you'll have to read down a fair bit to get to the posts I am referring to, mainly those by ARMed_Pirate) and http://forums.sirlingames.com/t/unofficial-codex-advanced-ru...

*even this isn't strictly accurate. See http://codexcarddb.com/ruling/haste and the second of the two points listed there.
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William Wilting
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robinz wrote:
I'm pretty sure all these things are indeed stated somewhere - but I'm afraid that the rulebook is really not very user-friendly. Codex isn't one of those games where you could get a copy, take it home to play with a friend, read the rulebook and then sit down to a game and only need to look a few things up as you play. William's experience above is itself proof of this - and while it's possible that language issues played a role in his case, this is by no means the only example.

In particular, and this was a point that I'd never noticed before, if the rules say, as they apparently do (I don't have the rulebook in front of me) "all card types have arrival fatigue", then why shouldn't that also apply to spells?

Now, as Jonathan clearly and correctly explained, arrival fatigue just means that "you can't exhaust the card"*, and there are no spells which have any kind of effect which requires you to exhaust them (instead the effect happens from simply playing them) - so it is possible to reason out that spells do not have "arrival fatigue". Indeed, I've not heard of anyone else making this particular assumption before. But I can certainly understand why many, including William, are confused. There are plenty of complaints on the Sirlin forums - including from people who know the game pretty well - about how badly the rules are explained. See for example http://forums.sirlingames.com/t/first-codex-games-impression... (you'll have to read down a fair bit to get to the posts I am referring to, mainly those by ARMed_Pirate) and http://forums.sirlingames.com/t/unofficial-codex-advanced-ru...

*even this isn't strictly accurate. See http://codexcarddb.com/ruling/haste and the second of the two points listed there.

Its description can be found in the "Other odds and ends" chapter of the rulebook.
Quote:
All card types have arrival fatigue, which means the turn they come under your control, they can’t use abilities that require exhausting as part of the cost. If they are units or heroes, it means they also can’t attack the turn they come under your control. If a card has haste though, it CAN attack and use exhaust abilities the turn it comes under your control.

There it is. It reads: "...If they are units or heroes..." which makes my point even bigger, because that implies that it can apply to other cards (spells, for example) as well. I already said that it didn't make very much sense to us that you could not use a spell in the same turn you played it, so I wouldn't disagree with anyone if there are people saying that spells don't apply to the arrival fatigue rule.

Okay, English isn't my native language, but I can tell from the reactions of other people, and without meaning to be arrogant or something else that is not very polite, that my understanding of the language is significantly better (according to others) than that of average people, at least in terms of speaking it. Reading it can be a problem, but that is caused less by English as the language and more by having to pick up a large amount of details (in this case from the rulebook) to turn it into something shorter in my mind, so I can memorize it (which even applies to reading Dutch; it doesn't matter which language it is). With that said, I honestly don't understand why someone would assume that my understanding of reading English language is "not very good", which I'd consider to be more negative than what I described myself. It's not the language that is the problem, but the meaning of a big amount of text including everything that is between the lines (which I could have missed). A set of rules can indicate the writer assumes that you'd understand what the consequences (which are not mentioned) would be for taking certain actions, due to experience (with other games with similarities).

I don't have that much experience with duelling games, allthough I'm interested. However, I'm not playing CCGs, because of the "open", unbalanced and random collectability. As I said somewhere in a reaction on YouTube, I'd wish Magic: the Gathering was an LCG, which doesn't have the randomness problem. Codex is none of the two, which attracts me even more. So, this is my first duelling game, which means I have a lot to learn about it, but I want to learn.
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K
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0616william wrote:
There it is. It reads: "...If they are units or heroes..." which makes my point even bigger, because that implies that it can apply to other cards (spells, for example) as well.


It's saying that because other card types, Buildings and Upgrades, actually do have arrival fatigue and it actually matters (esp for buildings). For spells, yeah, it's an irrelevant issue.

I'm not going to defend the rulebook though. If there are two things I've come to expect from SirlinGames, it's fantastic games and bad rulebooks
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John Fanjoy
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I don't think there are any spells that have exhaust abilities, so it doesn't matter that spells have arrival fatigue. If I've missed a spell that does have an exhaust ability, then yes, the spell has arrival fatigue and so you can't use the exhaust ability immediately.

As SirHandsome mentions above, it's very important that buildings have arrival fatigue - many of them have exhaust abilities that are very strong, and the fact that you have to protect them for a turn is a key drawback! Upgrades also have arrival fatigue, though the only one that has an exhaust ability (Eyes of the Chancellor) also happens to have haste. (edit: oops, Bloodburn also has an exhaust ability, but no haste)

Per the rulebook page 3 (available online),

- spells generally do what they say immediately and then go to discard, unless they are Ongoing, Channeled, and/or Attach to something
- spells require a hero to play, but there isn't any text that says that the hero has to be free from arrival fatigue to cast a spell. Note that Ultimate spells do have a restriction listed on this page (hero must have been maximum level since the start of the turn and under your control since the start of the turn)
- heroes can be levelled up on your turn if you pay gold, or they can level up on anybody's turn if an opposing hero dies. There isn't any text that says a hero can't level up the turn it arrives.
 
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Robin Zigmond
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CitizenFry wrote:
Upgrades also have arrival fatigue, though the only one that has an exhaust ability (Eyes of the Chancellor) also happens to have haste.


Apologies for pedantry, because your post is excellent - but Bloodburn says hi
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William Wilting
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Not being able to cast a spell immediately after playing it already didn't make much sense to me, but the sentence in the rules I referred to above states something that just makes me think that it applies to all card types, including spells. If a spell is the card type to which it doesn't apply, then it really should have been mentioned in the "Casting Spells" chapter; at least with a some clarifications like "Unless stated otherwise on the card, a spell doesn't have arrival fatigue when it's played; you can immediately use its effect". The fact that it isn't is bad. It's nice that MTG players have experience with this and expect it to work this way, but I'm not an MTG player; in fact, Codex is the very first duelling card game I bought and played.
 
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John Fanjoy
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0616william wrote:
Not being able to cast a spell immediately after playing it already didn't make much sense to me, but the sentence in the rules I referred to above states something that just makes me think that it applies to all card types, including spells. If a spell is the card type to which it doesn't apply, then it really should have been mentioned in the "Casting Spells" chapter; at least with a some clarifications like "Unless stated otherwise on the card, a spell doesn't have arrival fatigue when it's played; you can immediately use its effect". The fact that it isn't is bad. It's nice that MTG players have experience with this and expect it to work this way, but I'm not an MTG player; in fact, Codex is the very first duelling card game I bought and played.


I think there may be a fundamental misunderstanding in the bolded part: "casting" the spell and "playing" the spell are the same thing. If you have the right hero in play, you pay the gold cost and discard the card from your hand for an immediate effect. If you do not have the hero in play or the gold available, you can't do anything with the spell card in your hand.

You're right, spells do have arrival fatigue, since there isn't any exception that says they don't. However, it generally doesn't matter that they have arrival fatigue: I am not aware of any spells that attack, nor am I aware of any spells that have exhaust abilities, so arrival fatigue doesn't actually do anything to a spell.

Quote:
Spells are usually one-shot effects. That means they resolve, then go to your discard pile. Some are Ongoing Spells though, which means they stay in play until something says they don’t. Sometimes ongoing spells have “channeling” which means they’ll be destroyed if the hero who cast them leaves play. Other times they say they “attach” to something, and if that something is destroyed the ongoing spell gets discarded too. But if they don’t attach to anything and don’t have channeling, they’ll stick around until something specifically destroys them. Ongoing spells themselves can’t be attacked.


Arrival fatigue doesn't say anything about not being able to immediately use effects, except for effects that have an exhaust cost. The best description of arrival fatigue is on page 17, under "Exhaust." Spells do what they say immediately. Things such as the Arrives effect on Hired Stomper also happen immediately, even though the Stomper probably has arrival fatigue!
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