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Mage Knight Board Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Running out of wound cards.. rss

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Ebbe Cee
Malta
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Played a game yesterday semi cooperatively. We had the issue that one player had a kamikaze style where they ran into cities absorbed a lot of damage and basically took out the monsters one per raid. During round 4 we noticed that we ran out of wound cards.

This got us thinking that is this a valid way of playing? We couldn't find any rules against it (one sacrificing their fame and deck so the we can win the scenario). And we couldn't really think of a good way to distribute wounds for the rest of us after the cards ran out.

Any thoughts / ideas on this?
 
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Jonathan Arnold
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That's probably one reason the Lost Legion expansion comes with extra Wound cards! But it seems okay, just a little nuts. Didn't the hand become full of wounds?
 
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Teeka
Netherlands
Naarden
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I can't comment on the tactics involved, but wounds aren't supposed to run out. You'd have to substitute them in some way.
(The Lost Legion expansion comes with additional wound cards, by the way.)
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Rue Sailmana
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Zaandam
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Run out of wound cards? Seriously? Is that possible? I always wondered why there were so many included, I can't imagine running out of them, even with a kamikaze style.

I play a lot with Arythea, who thrives on wounds which means a kamikaze style is preferable, but I don't even get through half the pile in a full game.

Having said that, I do have twelve extra wound cards thanks to Mage Knight Board Game: The Lost Legion, but still...
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Ebbe Cee
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jdarnold wrote:
That's probably one reason the Lost Legion expansion comes with extra Wound cards! But it seems okay, just a little nuts. Didn't the hand become full of wounds?


Yes that did happen a lot. So he's strategies after that revolved around ways to discard/draw cards and a lot of resting turns. But it was surprising how much he could still help the cause with 20-25 wound cards in his deck.
 
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Ebbe Cee
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Ruesailmana wrote:
Run out of wound cards? Seriously? Is that possible? I always wondered why there were so many included, I can't imagine running out of them, even with a kamikaze style.


We played a 3 player game with Blitz Conquest so we were under a lot of pressure to invade 3 cities fast. We all took our share of wounds but one player took way more than his share. I was surprised how well it worked even with all those wounds in hands. We won the scenario but the kamikaze player ended with 19 points
 
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Teeka
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EbbeC wrote:
it was surprising how much he could still help the cause with 20-25 wound cards in his deck.




laugh
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Adam Stapley
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Lyman
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EbbeC wrote:
Played a game yesterday semi cooperatively. We had the issue that one player had a kamikaze style where they ran into cities absorbed a lot of damage and basically took out the monsters one per raid. During round 4 we noticed that we ran out of wound cards.

This got us thinking that is this a valid way of playing? We couldn't find any rules against it (one sacrificing their fame and deck so the we can win the scenario). And we couldn't really think of a good way to distribute wounds for the rest of us after the cards ran out.

Any thoughts / ideas on this?


My concern with this tactic, and acquiring that many wounds, is that at some point he MUST have become KOed and had to remove wounds one per turn from his hand until he was below his hand limit again.

Did you play with the rule that says that you take more wounds in a combat than your hand limit, and if you DO get that many wounds the combat ends, you discard everything but wounds, and on each turn afterwards you have discard one wound per turn?
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Ben Kyo
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Suita
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EbbeC wrote:
We won the scenario but the kamikaze player ended with 19 points

Well, that's the other problem with this strategy. The team's score is 19. You could probably improve on that...
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Ebbe Cee
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AtStapley wrote:
My concern with this tactic, and acquiring that many wounds, is that at some point he MUST have become KOed and had to remove wounds one per turn from his hand until he was below his hand limit again.

Did you play with the rule that says that you take more wounds in a combat than your hand limit, and if you DO get that many wounds the combat ends, you discard everything but wounds, and on each turn afterwards you have discard one wound per turn?


He never took damage equal or more than his hand limit, and there was more than one time that he only had 1 non-wound card in his hand (usually planned like this so he can do a full rest next turn). So he never needed to resort to slow resting. Unless I have understood the rules somehow incorrectly.

The way understood the rules is, if you have 1 non-wound card you can discard that at the start of your turn to discard all wound cards to your discard pile without any limitations to do a full rest.
 
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Ebbe Cee
Malta
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Benkyo wrote:
EbbeC wrote:
We won the scenario but the kamikaze player ended with 19 points

Well, that's the other problem with this strategy. The team's score is 19. You could probably improve on that...


But the scenario is competitive. So the way I understand that is, we lose together but win individually.
 
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Carsten Jorgensen
Denmark
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Should it happen again here are the solutions I can come up with:

1) If not using a dummy player, then the deck of that 4th mage knight could be used as wounds. Though difficult to tell apart easially, so if sleeved, you could put small pieces of paper inside the sleeves to indicate they are wounds right now.

2) Another substitute for wounds could be to take some cards from the bottom of the spell, AA or artifacts deck. Then mark them the same way with paper inside the sleeves. Of course only good if you are not in risk of running out of a type.

3) If it is first some turns into the last round, that this becomes a problem, then you could remove wounds from your discard piles and instead write down how many you have taken out of each. Should you need to shuffle and draw cards from one, then you would of course need to put wounds back inside it. Otherwise it only matters for the final score (if using magic glade to throw away a wound in your discard pile, you adjust the number of wounds written down instead of actually removing a wound from the pile).
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Ebbe Cee
Malta
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Randor20 wrote:
Should it happen again here are the solutions I can come up with:...


Those are actually good ideas. Thanks!

Seems that this style of play is not against the rules. It just completely ruins the score of the player who takes the role of sacrifice
 
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Doug DeMoss
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Stillwater
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EbbeC wrote:
Benkyo wrote:
EbbeC wrote:
We won the scenario but the kamikaze player ended with 19 points

Well, that's the other problem with this strategy. The team's score is 19. You could probably improve on that...


But the scenario is competitive. So the way I understand that is, we lose together but win individually.


I think you can actually win even if you fail to take down all the cities. It's just whoever has the most fame - same as if you "won."
 
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David desJardins
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Burlingame
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AtStapley wrote:
My concern with this tactic, and acquiring that many wounds, is that at some point he MUST have become KOed and had to remove wounds one per turn from his hand until he was below his hand limit again.


There are other ways around that problem. For example, you could take 100 Wounds in one turn and discard all of your non-Wound cards, but then you could play Motivation before your next turn to draw 2 cards, then rest discarding 1 non-Wound along with 100 Wounds.
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Dave
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DaviddesJ wrote:
AtStapley wrote:
My concern with this tactic, and acquiring that many wounds, is that at some point he MUST have become KOed and had to remove wounds one per turn from his hand until he was below his hand limit again.


There are other ways around that problem. For example, you could take 100 Wounds in one turn and discard all of your non-Wound cards, but then you could play Motivation before your next turn to draw 2 cards, then rest discarding 1 non-Wound along with 100 Wounds.
I'd love to see that 100 Wound turn!
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Spike K
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jdarnold wrote:
That's probably one reason the Lost Legion expansion comes with extra Wound cards! But it seems okay, just a little nuts. Didn't the hand become full of wounds?


Volkare uses Wounds in his deck.


I see it unlikely to have so many wounds in your deck and being functional. Unless everyone else is deliberately only using 1-2 cards a turn also so that person has time to discard and draw a functional hand.

Maybe if semi co-operative use the Dummy Player app thats set a round limit so people are not rewarded for slow play cheesy play (or keep playing as is if that is how you enjoy playing).
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Ebbe Cee
Malta
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Sufinsil wrote:
Maybe if semi co-operative use the Dummy Player app thats set a round limit so people are not rewarded for slow play cheesy play (or keep playing as is if that is how you enjoy playing).


We did use the dummy player app. There was no waiting around I myself was also surprised how a player can be functional at all with those wounds. But I'm telling you, he was very helpful and able. Could be that he did lucky draws and had ways to discard and draw cards.
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Ben Kyo
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Suita
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Is "semi-cooperative" even an option in Mage Knight?
As far as I know, Mage Knight is cooperative or competitive. If cooperative, you got a really low score. If competitive, that player was playing to lose.
It's only because you are playing according to house rules that this "strategy" could be seen as a problem.

I have played the Volkare cooperative scenarios on higher difficulties where it became necessary to take a lot of wounds just to eke out a win, but as mentioned above that expansion comes with a lot of extra wound cards.
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Ruesailmana wrote:
I play a lot with Arythea, who thrives on wounds which means a kamikaze style is preferable, but I don't even get through half the pile in a full game.
Well, IME, while she can get some good use out of wound cards, she'll still struggle to get rid of them permanently, and thus end up with a bad final score.

It's also highly inefficient play to attack a large group of enemies, taking them out one at a time.
There are situations when you may have no other choice to do it maybe once to get rid of a 'problem enemy', but then you should usually be able to prepare and tackle the rest in one go.

So, yes, you can theoretically run out of wound cards, but it's a clear sign of bad play.
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Mike van Veen
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You ran out of Wounds because you were playing with a house-ruled game mode.

Semi-cooperative is not in my Rulebook.

If I decide to play with a rule that gives me 5 gold mana per turn I don't turn to the forums to complain that the game doesn't have 5 gold mana tokens.
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Ebbe Cee
Malta
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DreamStorm wrote:
You ran out of Wounds because you were playing with a house-ruled game mode.

Semi-cooperative is not in my Rulebook.

If I decide to play with a rule that gives me 5 gold mana per turn I don't turn to the forums to complain that the game doesn't have 5 gold mana tokens.


How would things be different if I called the game cooperative or competitive? Other than our score was 19 or the loser had 19? The point of my original post still stands.

EDIT: By "semi-cooperative" I actually meant "slightly competitive", which I'm sure you will find from your rule book as well.
 
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Ben Kyo
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Suita
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EbbeC wrote:
DreamStorm wrote:
You ran out of Wounds because you were playing with a house-ruled game mode.

Semi-cooperative is not in my Rulebook.

If I decide to play with a rule that gives me 5 gold mana per turn I don't turn to the forums to complain that the game doesn't have 5 gold mana tokens.


How would things be different if I called the game cooperative or competitive? Other than our score was 19 or the loser had 19? The point of my original post still stands.

The difference is that there is no incentive to play as a suicidal player. In a cooperative game you would have scored higher by not taking the final city. In a competitive game no-one plays to lose. Only in a "semi-cooperative" setting is there any incentive for one player to throw away their personal score so another player can "win" with a high score.

Of course, there is an argument that even in a cooperative game the group would prefer to complete their mission regardless of score. I accept that, and I also play that a win is more important than score. However, the scoring system is a strong incentive to play better, and there will almost always be a better solution than repeated weak solo assaults on a city.

EDIT: "slightly competitve" is a competitive game, not a cooperative one. The player who played to lose was not competing, which is a player problem rather than a problem with the game.
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Ebbe Cee
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Benkyo wrote:
Of course, there is an argument that even in a cooperative game the group would prefer to complete their mission regardless of score. I accept that, and I also play that a win is more important than score. However, the scoring system is a strong incentive to play better, and there will almost always be a better solution than repeated weak solo assaults on a city.

EDIT: "slightly competitve" is a competitive game, not a cooperative one. The player who played to lose was not competing, which is a player problem rather than a problem with the game.


I very much agree that it is not ideal. And I don't expect games to thoroughly have mechanisms in place to prevent all non-ideal play. I wasn't trying to portray the notion that I have somehow found a way to break the game mechanics. I was genuinely interested whether we were doing something wrong because of the apparent usefulness of a player that had overloaded their deck with wounds.

We haven't played too many games so far, and it's pretty easy to get mixed up with some rules for a while But my conclusion over this thread was that we didn't actually do anything wrong. One player just self destructed so "we" could win the campaign.
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