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Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » Variants

Subject: Countering/Destroying Heros/Wonders? rss

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Sean D.
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Just pondering publicly here.

AFAIK - All of victory types have a direct counter to them to stop someone from winning except building the 5th H/W. I was thinking that a military counter might be an option. I thought that if an opponent occupied your Capital Province with at least 5 units (Legions, Centaurs Myrmidons), you couldn't build a new H/W. Alternatively, if they are able to sacrifice 5 units during the Move/Battle phase in your Capital they could destroy one of your H/W.

What do you all think?
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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Nah, I think it exists BECAUSE it's the long game victory condition that's impossible to sneak. It's the condition that basically ensures the game will eventually end.
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James Park
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I agree with the former poster. You want the game to eventually end. One of the things that make Mare Nostrum good, in my opinion, is that it is finite. And while you can do things that will prolong the experience, eventually it must come to an end.

The strategy to countering Heroes and Wonders is to keep track of people's resources and hit them when they seem to be accumulating too many (especially Egypt, Rome, and Carthage). Or achieve a victory condition before them.

That said, I would encourage anyone to use whatever house rules they think will make the game more fun for their group. I just don't think it's necessary (and not sure it's a good idea). But if it works for your group, then it works.
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Sean D.
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My problem is that I've seen people just turtle, and do nothing except get just enough resources to build H/W. You essentially have to occupy them to prevent them from having enough resources to do it, but that move opens you to attack from others. Once they get up to 4 H/W, you have to hold them in check indefinitely, and there is no other way than that to stop them, as soon as you let the pressure off they win.

I suppose that you have to watch them and stomp on them earlier as they will be weaker militarily if they really focus on H/W in the whole game.
 
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Ben Rubinstein

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Hector131 wrote:
My problem is that I've seen people just turtle, and do nothing except get just enough resources to build H/W. You essentially have to occupy them to prevent them from having enough resources to do it, but that move opens you to attack from others. Once they get up to 4 H/W, you have to hold them in check indefinitely, and there is no other way than that to stop them, as soon as you let the pressure off they win.

I suppose that you have to watch them and stomp on them earlier as they will be weaker militarily if they really focus on H/W in the whole game.


Except that a H/W victory is probably the slowest victory. If they turtle and aim for H/W, they will ONLY have enough resources for H/W. That will leave Conquest/Pyramid/Leadership victories open to the other players to achieve more quickly.
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Sean D.
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Alright, you all have convinced me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
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James Park
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Hector131 wrote:
My problem is that I've seen people just turtle, and do nothing except get just enough resources to build H/W. You essentially have to occupy them to prevent them from having enough resources to do it, but that move opens you to attack from others. Once they get up to 4 H/W, you have to hold them in check indefinitely, and there is no other way than that to stop them, as soon as you let the pressure off they win.

I suppose that you have to watch them and stomp on them earlier as they will be weaker militarily if they really focus on H/W in the whole game.


Turtling players can be hard to take on, especially Greece. However some things to keep in mind:

Often, war is a cooperative effort. I think a lot of people miss the social aspect of this game a lot. No one empire can really attack another empire without at least the tacit consent of another empire. So it might be in your best interest to convince another empire why they should make peace while you deal with the threat.

OR, you can attempt to convince others to deal with the threat for you. Diplomacy (and manipulation) are absolutely part of the mechanics of the game.

Another thing to keep in mind is that you cannot achieve an economic victory without expanding. Unless trade is consistently going to 5 every time. They have to expand and, in this game, expanding makes you vulnerable. It's just a matter of if another players takes advantage.

And as another poster pointed out, 5 heroes is a slow victory condition and also a really obvious one. Once you hit 4 heroes (sometimes 3 depending on how vigilant everyone else is), you're essentially challenging the other empires to come stop you.
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Sean D.
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Yes, once others try and stop you, then a 3rd or 4th player gets a chance to win as they are left unchallenged. Whomever is stopped the least wins. That's my limited experience so far. Everyone should be fighting everyone else somewhat equally to hold back all players from victory!
 
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Eric Guttag
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Hey Sean,

As others have said, going the 5th Hero/Wonder path to victory will be obvious to the other players. You've also got to keep all 4 potential victory paths in front of you, or one of the players may sneak up and win. Also, I prefer the rule revealing only 5 Hero/Wonder at one time; that forces players to consider alternate strategies to the 5th Hero/Wonder path, not the same strategy.
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