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Canadian Crucible: Brigade Fortress at Norrey» Forums » General

Subject: Company size and battalion size? rss

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Clay Stone
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Hey fellas can i get some help on this.


Does this represents company size? (3 platoon)



Does this represent Battalion size? (9 platoon units)


Thanks


...
 
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M St
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When talking purely about infantry strength, generally yes, but in practice it's the unit ID's that matter. Here you have three companies. They don't add up to a complete battalion though, since the support weapons are missing.

Conversely, two A-RR-7 and one B-RR-7 platoon would not represent "a company sized" force, but elements of two reduced strength companies (A and B).

It's not quite clear what the point of your question is. In terms of the command rules, even the first photo counts as "one battalion" for opsheet size, since there are elements of one battalion in the photo.

 
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Clay Stone
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M St wrote:
When talking purely about infantry strength, generally yes, but in practice it's the unit ID's that matter. Here you have three companies. They don't add up to a complete battalion though, since the support weapons are missing.

Conversely, two A-RR-7 and one B-RR-7 platoon would not represent "a company sized" force, but elements of two reduced strength companies (A and B).

It's not quite clear what the point of your question is. In terms of the command rules, even the first photo counts as "one battalion" for opsheet size, since there are elements of one battalion in the photo.



I'm trying to make an OP Sheet and i like to know what makes up a battalion for the sheet and what makes up a company. If i wanted to send a battalion to attack is it 3 infantry units with 1 weapon unit that make up a battalion then?

 
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Carl Fung
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Orders aren't to any combination of platoons that are of battalion size but rather to the specific battalion itself. One Op Sheet is to the Regina Rifles - the RR in the #-RR-7 designation to all units with the same color stripe. This also includes the AT guns, Mortars, and Bren carriers. A counter from the #-RWR-7 cannot be put on the Op Sheet since it's not part of that battalion but will be on the RWR (Royal Winnipeg Regiment) Op Sheet.
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Mike Brewer
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Quote:
I'm trying to make an OP Sheet and i like to know what makes up a battalion for the sheet and what makes up a company.


As far as I can remember, the only reason you would need to know this is to work out if the (helpful) Battalion modifier applies when calculating the size of the force on the OpSheet. This modifier applies only if every unit that belongs to a particular battalion is on the same OpSheet. The number of units itself is irrelevant.

If you want to know which units were in a given company, then look at the OoB at the back of the game-specific rules, or check the small print on the counters.

Mike
 
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Company labels are useful to express the Task Organization in a concise form.

In your example:

A Coy, B Coy -> Main assault
C Coy -> Flank support

As rule 6.7a says "Never leave any doubt about which units are in a Task Organization"
 
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Ethan McKinney
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The first picture is a complete company. As Mike said, you need to consult the OoB on p. 14 of the CC rules for the complete organization of the battalion partially shown in the second picture. You're missing D Company, pioneers, AT guns, mortars, and carriers.

As Markus asked, though, exactly why you're asking matters.

1. For historical interest or wanting to stick with historical formations for orders, the OoB has the correct info.

2. For determining the size of an Op Sheet, assigning a single counter from a battalion to an Op Sheet means increases the Op Sheet's size by one!

3. For the Staff modifier, the complete battalion must be assigned to the Op Sheet (same as #1).

calvinboy24 wrote:
Orders aren't to any combination of platoons that are of battalion size but rather to the specific battalion itself. One Op Sheet is to the Regina Rifles - the RR in the #-RR-7 designation to all units with the same color stripe. This also includes the AT guns, Mortars, and Bren carriers. A counter from the #-RWR-7 cannot be put on the Op Sheet since it's not part of that battalion but will be on the RWR (Royal Winnipeg Regiment) Op Sheet.


This is wrong. Carl may be thinking of the special German Op Sheet tule for CC. It's perfectly acceptable to add a single platoon of the RWR to the Regina Rifles' Op Sheet, bu it still adds one to the size just as if you'd added a complete second battalion. It's also legal for an Op Sheet to include four companies from four different battalions; it's just normally inefficient because the size gets a so huge and you wouldn't get the Staff modifier.
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Carl Fung
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elbmc1969 wrote:


calvinboy24 wrote:
Orders aren't to any combination of platoons that are of battalion size but rather to the specific battalion itself. One Op Sheet is to the Regina Rifles - the RR in the #-RR-7 designation to all units with the same color stripe. This also includes the AT guns, Mortars, and Bren carriers. A counter from the #-RWR-7 cannot be put on the Op Sheet since it's not part of that battalion but will be on the RWR (Royal Winnipeg Regiment) Op Sheet.


This is wrong. Carl may be thinking of the special German Op Sheet tule for CC. It's perfectly acceptable to add a single platoon of the RWR to the Regina Rifles' Op Sheet, bu it still adds one to the size just as if you'd added a complete second battalion. It's also legal for an Op Sheet to include four companies from four different battalions; it's just normally inefficient because the size gets a so huge and you wouldn't get the Staff modifier.


Thanks for correcting that. I didn't want to give incorrect info.
 
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Kev.
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elbmc1969 wrote:
The first picture is a complete company. As Mike said, you need to consult the OoB on p. 14 of the CC rules for the complete organization of the battalion partially shown in the second picture. You're missing D Company, pioneers, AT guns, mortars, and carriers.

As Markus asked, though, exactly why you're asking matters.

1. For historical interest or wanting to stick with historical formations for orders, the OoB has the correct info.

2. For determining the size of an Op Sheet, assigning a single counter from a battalion to an Op Sheet means increases the Op Sheet's size by one!

3. For the Staff modifier, the complete battalion must be assigned to the Op Sheet (same as #1).

calvinboy24 wrote:
Orders aren't to any combination of platoons that are of battalion size but rather to the specific battalion itself. One Op Sheet is to the Regina Rifles - the RR in the #-RR-7 designation to all units with the same color stripe. This also includes the AT guns, Mortars, and Bren carriers. A counter from the #-RWR-7 cannot be put on the Op Sheet since it's not part of that battalion but will be on the RWR (Royal Winnipeg Regiment) Op Sheet.


This is wrong. Carl may be thinking of the special German Op Sheet tule for CC. It's perfectly acceptable to add a single platoon of the RWR to the Regina Rifles' Op Sheet, bu it still adds one to the size just as if you'd added a complete second battalion. It's also legal for an Op Sheet to include four companies from four different battalions; it's just normally inefficient because the size gets a so huge and you wouldn't get the Staff modifier.

yes. key point you can always attach units
 
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M St
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claystone wrote:
M St wrote:
When talking purely about infantry strength, generally yes, but in practice it's the unit ID's that matter. Here you have three companies. They don't add up to a complete battalion though, since the support weapons are missing.

Conversely, two A-RR-7 and one B-RR-7 platoon would not represent "a company sized" force, but elements of two reduced strength companies (A and B).

It's not quite clear what the point of your question is. In terms of the command rules, even the first photo counts as "one battalion" for opsheet size, since there are elements of one battalion in the photo.


I'm trying to make an OP Sheet and i like to know what makes up a battalion for the sheet and what makes up a company.

That's what I'm saying above. You asked whether the units in those photos are "company size" or "battalion size". But what determines what makes up a battalion for the opsheet is not size. It only depends on whether they belong to the same battalion in the organisational structure. Likewise, in your first photo above, the photo shows "a company" not because it's three infantry units but because it's all the units labeled B-RR-7 and there are no other units labeled B-RR-7 on the map.

Quote:
If i wanted to send a battalion to attack is it 3 infantry units with 1 weapon unit that make up a battalion then?

No, a battalion is defined as being all the units with the same battalion number (or name), regardless of what the specific number is at that point in the game. This game (like the real world) is all about organisation, not piling up the appropriate number of counters (as it would be, for example, in Panzerblitz).

A battalion for an opsheet is "any or all units with that battalion ID". It is not a fixed number of units. If you want to execute a battalion sized attack, you choose the specific battalion that attacks. If you think a particular battalion is too weak (say, because of losses), you choose another. Or you add additional units from another battalion. In the books, that last situation is what you'd find described as "a reinforced battalion". From the opsheet perspective, that means that it involves units from at least two battalions, since they have different battalion IDs.

So, from the opsheet perspective, you don't write "one battalion will attack". You say which specific battalions are involved by writing their IDs in the Task Organisation. (And if not the whole battalion is involved, you write which companies or units from that battalion are involved.) So for example if you write "RR-7", all units of the 'RR-7' battalion belong to that whether there's 9 or 6 or 12 of them.

And conversely, if there is one unit with an ID from a particular battalion on an opsheet, then that counts as an extra battalion mentioned on the opsheet and you pay for it in the size modifier. If you have even one unit of the RR-7 (even if it's only a single platoon from, say, A company) on an opsheet of the RWR (to use Ethan's example) then that counts as an extra battalion (since what this represents in real life is that the battalion HQs have to communicate over the use of that unit, and the unit has to be put in touch with the RWR HQ etc etc).

As others have pointed out, where companies and battalions matter (regardless of size) is for the staff modifier (if you use a whole battalion, leaving no one out), and for quick notation of the task organisation (because you can simply write "A Co" to refer to everyone in A Co, whether it has 2, 3, or 4 units left at that point).

You can theoretically mix and match units to produce sub-organisations of the theoretically exactly right size (say "the support group will consist of two platoons from A company and one from B company"), but it's more effort to write down, you'll likely confuse yourself during play, and there is no benefit in efficiency - on the contrary, as Ethan points out, if you start mixing battalions, you lose efficiency. All of which is just as it is in real life... but very different from most tactical wargames. That's why TCS is different.
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Clay Stone
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Thank you fellas...
 
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