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Subject: "The Vengeful" Appellation question rss

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Chris Schierer
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The Vengeful appellation (which is a starting game item, so not a spoiler) says:
"The Vengeful, Take back one enmity token each winter (including the first)."

Where should this fall in the Winter turn order of operations? For example, should it be before or after fields produce gold?

We opted to apply it during the "Move Enmity" phase, but this is just a guess.
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David desJardins
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LentilMcBean wrote:
Where should this fall in the Winter turn order of operations? For example, should it be before or after fields produce gold?


What difference does it make?
 
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Chris Schierer
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DaviddesJ wrote:
LentilMcBean wrote:
Where should this fall in the Winter turn order of operations? For example, should it be before or after fields produce gold?


What difference does it make?


Fields without enmity on them produce gold for their owner. Fields with enmity on them do NOT produce gold for their owner. So 4-8 gold of difference to the owner of the field.
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Clinton Rice
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LentilMcBean wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
LentilMcBean wrote:
Where should this fall in the Winter turn order of operations? For example, should it be before or after fields produce gold?


What difference does it make?


Fields without enmity on them produce gold for their owner. Fields with enmity on them do NOT produce gold for their owner. So 4-8 gold of difference to the owner of the field.


I would do as you did. The raided field does not produce. Take the token from the garrison after they have moved.
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Matt S
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LentilMcBean wrote:
We opted to apply it during the "Move Enmity" phase, but this is just a guess.


I think that is the intent, and agree that is where it gets done.
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Becq Starforged
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The move enmity phase makes sense.

Edit: Maybe not; see below.
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Frank Pelkofer
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And we agree that we CAN'T use this advisor to remove permanent enmity, right? It seems obvious, but in the base game there is no other kind of enmity in the first winter.
 
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David desJardins
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countertorque wrote:
And we agree that we CAN'T use this advisor to remove permanent enmity, right? It seems obvious, but in the base game there is no other kind of enmity in the first winter.


It's not just "obvious", it's explicit. Enmity tokens. The stickers are not tokens.
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Ben Martell
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I would have thought all appellations that do something each winter would occur at the same time, and since they aren't all about enmity, the enmity phase may not be the place. It's worth official clarification, especially if they occur at different times. No idea if other appellations could become order sensitive in time.
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Clinton Rice
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In my answer, I only indicated that the token should be taken after they have moved to the garrison. I didn't indicate a specific part of the winter phase to do this in. For my purposes, performing this action after the entire winter phase is complete but before advancing the astrolabe would be an opportune time.

So consider any post above that says during the move enmity action to instead say not before the move enmity action. Or better yet, just think of the vengeful appellation as saying "Take back one enmity token from a single garrison each winter (including the first)". Keeping that in mind, the timing is 100% irrelevant.
 
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Matt S
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benmartell wrote:
I would have thought all appellations that do something each winter would occur at the same time, and since they aren't all about enmity, the enmity phase may not be the place. It's worth official clarification, especially if they occur at different times. No idea if other appellations could become order sensitive in time.


None of the other appellations matter for timing. They give the owner extra fortune or reputation.
 
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Ben Martell
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mcs1213 wrote:
benmartell wrote:
I would have thought all appellations that do something each winter would occur at the same time, and since they aren't all about enmity, the enmity phase may not be the place. It's worth official clarification, especially if they occur at different times. No idea if other appellations could become order sensitive in time.


None of the other appellations matter for timing. They give the owner extra fortune or reputation.


If that remains true after all boxes are open, I don't want to know. For the purpose of rule clarifications in legacy game, the best approach is to assume it coukd become relevant at some stage.
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Clinton Rice
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benmartell wrote:
mcs1213 wrote:
benmartell wrote:
I would have thought all appellations that do something each winter would occur at the same time, and since they aren't all about enmity, the enmity phase may not be the place. It's worth official clarification, especially if they occur at different times. No idea if other appellations could become order sensitive in time.


None of the other appellations matter for timing. They give the owner extra fortune or reputation.


If that remains true after all boxes are open, I don't want to know. For the purpose of rule clarifications in legacy game, the best approach is to assume it coukd become relevant at some stage.


If the timing of appellations in winter was.important, it is likely the rulebook would cover it.
 
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Ben Martell
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KoalaXav wrote:
benmartell wrote:
mcs1213 wrote:
benmartell wrote:
I would have thought all appellations that do something each winter would occur at the same time, and since they aren't all about enmity, the enmity phase may not be the place. It's worth official clarification, especially if they occur at different times. No idea if other appellations could become order sensitive in time.


None of the other appellations matter for timing. They give the owner extra fortune or reputation.


If that remains true after all boxes are open, I don't want to know. For the purpose of rule clarifications in legacy game, the best approach is to assume it coukd become relevant at some stage.


If the timing of appellations in winter was.important, it is likely the rulebook would cover it.


There is always one, but I never understand why anyone would come out against getting clarification.

We already have one example of it being important and it was not covered by the rule book. Many reviews now have said one of the biggest issues with the game is rule ambiguity issues. So, no, I'm not going to say 'if it was important, the rules will cover it'. I think it is something worth having official clarification about.
 
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Becq Starforged
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Agreed that a clarification would be useful as confirmation.

What we know for sure:
* when plundered, a field does not produce during the following winter, but
* a field that is plundered but does not have an enmity token placed on it (which can occur if a raid is paid for with enmity tokens from the attacker's at war box) will still produce

It makes the most sense to me that the enmity would be removed after the enmity has its effect (ie, the fact that the enmity is there serves as a reminder that the field should not produce), but the clarification noted above muddies the waters.

For what it's worth, I plan to assume (until a clarification occurs) that the enmity is removed "at the end of winter". I'm leaning away from linking it to the "move enmity" step, because that step is not performed during the first winter yet the wording on the appellation states that it takes effect every winter including the first -- which in turn means that (spoiler based on the first unlock)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
the enmity tokens placed as a result of ranks at the beginning of the game are fair game for this appellation.

 
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Matt S
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Becq wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think the enmity tokens placed as a result of ranks at the beginning of the game should be fair game for this appellation.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Yes, they are hence the additional wording in the appellation. It has been a very useful strategy for a particular player in our games who has had a high rank every game.
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Becq Starforged
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Good point. Reworded my comment above to keep focus on the remaining question involving the sequence of events after the first turn.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Given that no stricter timing is specified apart from 'each Winter', would it not be safe to assume that the owner of such an ability could choose when it activates, provided that time is during the Winter?
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Ben Martell
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Clipper wrote:
Given that no stricter timing is specified apart from 'each Winter', would it not be safe to assume that the owner of such an ability could choose when it activates, provided that time is during the Winter?


In the absence of any firm clarification, this is the way I intend to play it.
 
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